Cultural Differences

I live in a realtively affluent, urban/residential area of Toronto. The dogs around here have nothing to complain about from what I see. Most people have 1 dog, a few have 2 and I know one guy (professional dog walker) who owns 4. The majority of dogs are purebred, but not necessarily from reputable breeders.

Across the street from me is a Pug, who without a word of a lie is walked 8-10 times a day. Up the street a Bern & Husky get their daytime walks from 'dog nanny'. They have no kids, but they have a livein who walks the dogs (and hopefully keeps house?). We have 4 parks within walking distance, that each have there own little dog community that have regular meeting times each day. A large ravine is used for the dogs who like to run off leash.
Dogs are never running free except in the park areas or they have accidentally escaped.

There are very few 'purse' dogs or dogs with designer clothing or stuff like that. I have known a number of dogs who have had tons of money spent on medical care however. Replaced hips, emergency surgeries, medications etc. I would say about 25% of the dogs are raw fed. Owners are not really into behaviouralists or advanced training. No show dogs or breeders. They are just really pet and companion dogs. For the most part the dogs are all well mannered a few are amazingly well trained.

 

ORIGINAL: espencer

Dont focus on yourself and your obvious fairly well behaved dogs, lets focus on general people, people that you see on the streets, do you have a lot of "oh that person does not know what she/he is doing with his/her dog" feelings? do you see a lot of "lets go pee only and come right back inside for the rest of the day" people? 

I live in a very small town, but I used to live in Los Angeles.  So I have seen "big city" dogs and "small town" dogs.  I also have family in South America (Ecuador and Chile) so I am familiar with another culture and how they interact with dogs.   I really don't think one culture can say they have more or less "balanced” or "spoiled” dogs.  Each family and dog owner is so different.  I can tell you I see a heck of a lot more stray or loose roaming dogs in South America than I do here.  Does this mean that these dogs are more "balanced b/c they are roaming fee?   I guess that depends on how you define "balanced.”  Personally I can loosely define "balanced” as a dog that is well behaved, i.e. no jumping, biting, respectful of a human's personal space.  So in the South American countries I have visited, my experience has been the following.  Most of my family members keep their dogs outside 24/7 in a fenced in area.  Sometimes if they own a small dog that one dog may be allowed inside.  At first glance, they may appear "balanced” according to my definition.  But if you take them outside the yard they would be running around like lunatics, would not come when called, etc.  Or let's say have a BBQ outside in the yard with the dogs, it's a whole other story.  These dogs have had no formal training.  They don't sit, stay or lie down on command.  If they happen to be doing any of this its simply b/c they feel like it, not b/c an owner has asked this from them.  They also tend to be big time resource guarders.  God forbid someone drop some food on the ground…there is no way to take it from the dog.  I can only assume the same would be true for all the strays as well.  So in my opinion and definition these dogs who some may say are "allowed to be dogs” and are not "spoiled” are not balanced.


  In the small town where I live there is a full gamut of lifestyles.  I live in a big hunting area so many dogs are hunting dogs that live outside or in kennels (in and out).  There is also my circle of friends which consist of "dog show people” so our dogs are formally trained in many different sports as well as the breed ring.  I sit on the board of our HS and we see very few neglect and abuse cases in our county which is good.  Our country is slightly more affluent, the surrounding counties which are a bit more rural see more neglect and abuse unfortunately.   Again, not sure if this a social-economic,  as an earlier poster suggested, but it may be.     

ORIGINAL: espencer
Do you see more "dog cultured" people on the streets with their dogs? or more "well i just walk my dog because I've seen other people doing it" kind of people? Let me hear what do you see out there   

Personally I see more "dog cultured” people as my friends are dog show enthusiasts so those are the people I see more often.  Even people who are not "dog show” people are always looking for things to teach or improve with their dogs.   

ORIGINAL: Angelique

This thread is getting uglier and more personal by the minute...ugh. [:'(]

Why, because we decided not to sit back and just let the USA bashing go on without a response?  It's not ok to criticize me personally, but it is ok to criticize my country???
Sorry, but I just don't like the unscientific and unsubstantiated premise that dogs are a certain way in the US.  This is a huge country, with many pockets of cultural diversity.  When my best friend, or houndlove, moves in next door to a bunch of rural folk who still have their dogs living outside, do you think they will "do as the Romans do"?  No, their dogs will still be well-trained, well-fed, and well cared for medically.  Generalizations that encompass an entire nation are unfair and should be repudiated.

Also, I did not say that I want to close the borders, although if my own immigrant ancestors could come here legally, I don't see why others should not.  Despite my native background on my mother's side, my paternal grandparents came over  from Lithuania, and I fully understand and respect that heritage.  My grandmother came in steerage as an 11 year old girl, all alone.  So, please do not assume!!!
You are very wrong - my statement was meant to point out that bigotry begets bigotry, and you did not catch that meaning.

I am going to heed the caution of the admin., I would hate to see another thread get whacked.  I hope some political observations I had commented didn't strike a nerve with some.  It is a topic the media chooses to hit us with daily along with the war and I think we all sick and tired media agenda.  Enough said on politics.

Back to the issue of cultural difference.  I would just like to say in closing, please don't be led to believe as espencer would assert a "cultural difference" makes for a better dog in regards to training.  There is a cultural difference in regards to treatment
of animals, but the question is does it make a better trained dog?  No, it does not make a difference IMO.

Anne I would could come from opposite sides of the fence in training.  I think Anne is 100% pro-positive all the time.  I am not ro-positive 100%.  I incorporate some negative reinforcement.  I have e-collared trained my dog since she was about 4 months old.  She is now 5.5 yrs, with 4 seasons of hunting under her belt.  The overriding issue here is though, regardless of whether you are pro-positive 100% or incorporate other technique, the "cultural difference" aspect yielding better dogs is a
biased concept.  I understand there is a connection between espencer and CM with some nationalism and espencer maybe looks up to CM, learns from his techniques, thinks he the best there is...and that is all good stuff.  But please don't insult our intelligence by asserting a cultural difference will no doubt yield a better dog which is essentially the argument.  It simply doesn't work that way.

Ok, so I am an e-collar user which some of you like Anne already know.  Yes, I have tried all the settings on myself.  I am not
a cruel person.  I know what it feels like and know what setting is best for my use....momentary nicks ( I think 1/16 or 1/32 of second) and a low-level stim work best for me.  Have you ever touched the tip of your tongue to a 9-volt battery?  You get that tingly sensation.  We're talking about a stimulation slightly less than that and for fractions of a second.  Sure, my Tri-Tronics can crank up some heat if I wanted too, but that is NOT what it is about.  For me it is an attention getter, tap on shoulder reminder in case a command happens to be ignored.  The placebo affect of the collar is effective, and more often than not, I never have to hit a button while working my dog in a field, we get along just fine with voice command.  I respect Anne and the position she takes on negative reinforcement.  I respect her methods, it takes dedication and hard work.

So, the e-collar thing has some very political connotations, and some anti e-collar movements have been successful in leading to government bans on their sale.  Europe has been dealing with this for some time.  So where do they turn to purchase their e-collars?  They purchase their e-collars from America, because regardless of any "cultural difference", I repeat, we have the best trainers, the best in equipment, and the very best of breeds are found right here in America!

Take care folks....
Here's a pic one of the best Field Setters!

I'm still not sure I understand how questioning/critquing/criticizing the way Americans treat their dogs (even if it's purely anecdotal) is tantamount to bigotry but I guess we've moved on.  I can now go to bed knowing that the country is safe from Espencer. 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Why, because we decided not to sit back and just let the USA bashing go on without a response?  It's not ok to criticize me personally, but it is ok to criticize my country???
Sorry, but I just don't like the unscientific and unsubstantiated premise that dogs are a certain way in the US.  This is a huge country, with many pockets of cultural diversity.  When my best friend, or houndlove, moves in next door to a bunch of rural folk who still have their dogs living outside, do you think they will "do as the Romans do"?  No, their dogs will still be well-trained, well-fed, and well cared for medically.  Generalizations that encompass an entire nation are unfair and should be repudiated.

Also, I did not say that I want to close the borders, although if my own immigrant ancestors could come here legally, I don't see why others should not.  Despite my native background on my mother's side, my paternal grandparents came over  from Lithuania, and I fully understand and respect that heritage.  My grandmother came in steerage as an 11 year old girl, all alone.  So, please do not assume!!!
You are very wrong - my statement was meant to point out that bigotry begets bigotry, and you did not catch that meaning.

Totally off topic, if you dont like something then PM me but we are in the right track again with this thread and i hope it continues that way

ORIGINAL: silverserpher

I can now go to bed knowing that the country is safe from Espencer. 

The topic was "cultural differences".  So, on that subject, and based on your words below, I would say - you have a now self-admitted lack of knowledge of anything but the areas you have personally lived in, you have undertaken no scientific research on this subject, so your statement is simply prejudicial and not based in fact.  Which is, presumably, why felt you had to go back to edit your post on March 19th.

like i said in the beginning, the amount of dogs with problems are significantly more in USA that in another countries

I see this as a sweeping generalization of entire country and its dog owners, based on the opinion of one immigrant, and taken as fact by a devotee.   epsencer, you need to move to a few more countries before you can make a claim like this.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Why, because...

Totally off topic, if you dont like something then PM me but we are in the right track again with this thread and i hope it continues that way.

Yes, this would make sense.

On topic:

I was interested in several unpleasant things Cesar pointed out in his book about how dogs were viewed and treated by his country neighbors and what he noticed differed from his grandfather's attitudes towards dogs.

He mentions that when the neighbor's dogs would get into fights, it was viewed as sport by them. He was also picked on in school when he moved to the city because he choose to spend his time with the dog he had worked so hard to get from a setter breeder (if I'm remembering correctly).

Cesar shares his observations of when he came to this country, the dogs seemed very well loved and cared for, but at the same time seemed to display more aggression and instability. Which puzzled him at first. He also makes mention of how well the homeless people's dogs behaved.

These are personal observations. I have plenty of my own, but they mostly stem from generational comparisons of how different it was with a mom at home in the 60's when (and where) I grew up. Kids spent more of their time out of doors, in nature, playing games (no computers, I-pods, cell phones, or DVDs). I just think dogs were just more socialized with humans and had more of a leadership presence with fewer moms working.

Was it "better"? In some ways, as far as a dog not being left alone and isolated because back then it didn't take two incomes just to survive, yes. But in many ways (a trip to the pound was a death sentence and there was little push to get dogs spayed and/or neutored), no.

Comparing generations based on my own observations? These days, I would say I see far too much humanizing, babying, and placing a dog in our "significant other" or "child" position as our primary bond with another living being, and putting other humans, second. IMO, the dogs and the humans both lose when this happens.

"Different" doesn't always mean "better", and personal observations and opinions, are only that. IMO []

ORIGINAL: Angelique

These are personal observations. I have plenty of my own, but they mostly stem from generational comparisons of how different it was with a mom at home in the 60's when (and where) I grew up. Kids spent more of their time out of doors, in nature, playing games (no computers, I-pods, cell phones, or DVDs). I just think dogs were just more socialized with humans and had more of a leadership presence with fewer moms working.

Was it "better"? In some ways, as far as a dog not being left alone and isolated because back then it didn't take two incomes just to survive, yes. But in many ways (a trip to the pound was a death sentence and there was little push to get dogs spayed and/or neutored), no.

Comparing generations based on my own observations? I would say I see far too much humanizing, babying, and placing a dog in our "significant other" or "child" position as our primary bond with another living being, and putting other humans, second. IMO, the dogs and the humans both lose when this happens.

"Different" doesn't always mean "better", and personal observations and opinions, are only that. IMO []

Very interesting, you are right, kids and adults now have things to distract their minds with more than before, in the past maybe even some families didnt have TV, then they were spending their time outside with the dogs

All the posters here spend a good amount of time with their dogs so that does not apply to any of us, but we are a small percent from all the people that own dogs, a good amount of people like you say just go to work and when they are not at work they do something else than spend time with their dogs in a constructive way, i pods, video games, TV, bars, etc help with that

Also i wonder if the "macho culture" in 3rd world countries make the humans discipline their dogs more, causing some dogs this way to have a "shut down" personality that some posters are afraid of all the time, their needs were not fufill for sure, Mexico have not a lot of "dog cultured" people and the prove is in the lack of info, books, videos and trainers, they compansate that with A LOT of discipline since people dont have the resources to buy all that

Which now makes me wonder why i never heard before in Mexico about dogs PTS for behavioral problems, they were PTS because they were street dogs, i never saw non mut dogs in shelters, maybe because the amount of street dogs is so big then seeing a non mut one there is so difficult

Of course no all the dogs there are "shut down dogs". USA definitly is more "dog cultured", more needs are fufilled here, the amount of people walking their dogs is 2 for every 10 Americans maybe, but here, instead of having a balanced amount of discipline (let alone the excess of) maybe the discipline level is below the necessary one to have a well balanced dog

I think Mexico has a low excersice level for the dogs but a huge amount of discipline, here is a fair amount of excersice and low discipline, and some times not even excersice for the reasons we discussed at the top of this reply and how some people (not the ones here in this forum) spend more time in other things that in their dogs
 
ETA: Deb (Angelique), your mail box is full

There is a possibility that CM's observations is based on the fact that he was an Immigrant living/working in LA.

A lot of immigrants work for the more affluent.  Providing services.  If I remember correctly, he began as a groomer.

So really, it sounds as if his whole career began as seeing/working for folks who are able to afford such services.

Maybe that is where his perspective is coming from.

I dunno...I'm guessing.

But I have to agree with the poster who said it is more socioeconomic.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ETA: Deb (Angelique), your mail box is full

 
Thanks! All cleared out! []

He-he... There is an interesting parallel between this thread and " Hubby Wonders...."

http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=296484

See the connection?

I grew up out on the farm with outside farm dogs. They ate whatever was leftover from the table (including cooked bones) and usually had a bowl of the cheapest dog food from the feed store to snack on inbetween. Then, of course there were dead baby pigs, chicken parts when grandma butchered, mice, rats, whatever they could scavenge. They were covered in fleas and ticks unless grandma remembered to dust them with Sevin when she dusted the garden.
Were those dogs unhappy, neglected, suffering? Probably by some people's standards. But I do know NONE of those dogs barked incessantly, acted aggressively, got separation anxiety, or even jumped on people. They would happily follow us around the farm as we did chores...

And the same applies to children. There are so many around here that are over weight, from a few pounds to ones that look like the old toy weebles--you know, wobble but don't fall down. You rarely see them outside, mostly insides with fingers on keyboard playing computer games or on a control playing games on TV.

...dogs WERE healtheir a few years ago than today. NOBODY gave vitamins, didn't even think about it. Dogs were not bathed once a week, with bows put in hair and toenails painted--you would have been laughed out of my little community had you done something like that.

Etc.

Having read through "Hubby Wonders" thread, nobody there is asked to provide scientific proof of their observations, statistics, or is being questioned about trips to the pond as a way to euthanize dogs. People in that thread just reflect back on their experiences, question things, and try to draw conclusions. I hope you can see where I am going with this. This is not about culture X vs. culture Y.

In *some* ways, the more developed the society is, the better it is for humans, not necessarily for pets... Isn't it? There is definitely *something* to learn about being a good pet owner from our grandparents, no matter where we are in the US or Mexico. Or, why not look at countries like Mexico or Russia for some good advise (not on eating dogs!). Like I said it before, it's not that people in these countries are more educated about how to fulfill their dogs' needs, it's just that their own needs are a priority... This is like that now in Russia, and that's how it was in America 50 years ago.

ORIGINAL: TinaK

Having read through "Hubby Wonders" thread, nobody there is asked to provide scientific proof of their observations, statistics, or is being questioned about trips to the pond as a way to euthanize dogs. People in that thread just reflect back on their experiences, question things, and try to draw conclusions. I hope you can see where I am going with this. This is not about culture X vs. culture Y.

In *some* ways, the more developed the society is, the better it is for humans, not necessarily for pets... Isn't it? There is definitely *something* to learn about being a good pet owner from our grandparents, no matter where we are in the US or Mexico. Or, why not look at countries like Mexico or Russia for some good advise (not on eating dogs!). Like I said it before, it's not that people in these countries are more educated about how to fulfill their dogs' needs, it's just that their own needs are a priority... This is like that now in Russia, and that's how it was in America 50 years ago.

 
Nice catch and I totally agree.  And because we Americans like to believe that we're the most developed nation in the world, I think it's only fair that we should embrace a discussion about whether that development has had "some" negative impact on our pets.  I think we can have that discussion without abusing the OP.

I think one of the biggest killers of dogs is stress. In this area CM is definately top dog in that the best way to relieve stress is exercise. Although any decent trainer and any good book will mention exercise, most give it little space. IMO it deserves the space CM gives.
 
I personally spend a small fortune in supplements (and food)  every month. I'm trying to play catch up on my dogs' previous lives. They certainly don't know about it although they find home cooked chow tasty.  Blood tests make it likely that they will live longer because we do these things. They don't have a concept of age. Ulitmately it is because we love these three dogs and are doing everything in our power to postpone the day we have to say good bye.
 
Today we went to the river. It's been several months and Wolfgang has had a hard time this winter with his dysplasia. He's endured a  lot of treatments that are painful, which he has tolerated with excellent grace. To see him crouch, pounce, roll and play like a puppy in the warm sand made all of my flinches when he whimpered worthwhile.
 
I understand what you are saying in over treating our pets, but I have results with my own pets that make me believe that what I'm doing is indeed the right path. Supplements don't cure cancer but in Floyd's case something prevented cancer from coming back. In Wolfgang's case, his kidney function improved. That said, I fully understand that going to the river is absolutely the best thing I could have done for my dogs.