Interview With Cesar Millan by Steve Dale

ORIGINAL: Trevell

Be sure to listen to the response to this interview:
[linkhttp://www.petworldradio.net/audioarchives/vop-11.18.06-landsberg.mp3]http://www.petworldradio.net/audioarchives/vop-11.18.06-landsberg.mp3[/link]
It's only a few minutes long.  He talks to the former president of the AVSAB about all of CM's evil techniques.  He's all chummy with this guy because he's one of the  "real experts".  Nice.  As opposed to CM, one of the "fake experts", right? 

CM has done more good for dogs in the past couple years he's been in the spotlight, than this guy could ever hope to achieve in his entire lifetime.

 
I know, WTF with his last comment? is good to talk with the "real experts", also the vet dude talking about "punishment methods" who the hell uses those anyways?

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Trevell

Be sure to listen to the response to this interview:
[linkhttp://www.petworldradio.net/audioarchives/vop-11.18.06-landsberg.mp3]http://www.petworldradio.net/audioarchives/vop-11.18.06-landsberg.mp3[/link]
It's only a few minutes long.  He talks to the former president of the AVSAB about all of CM's evil techniques.  He's all chummy with this guy because he's one of the  "real experts".  Nice.  As opposed to CM, one of the "fake experts", right? 

CM has done more good for dogs in the past couple years he's been in the spotlight, than this guy could ever hope to achieve in his entire lifetime.

I know, WTF with his last comment? is good to talk with the "real experts", also the vet dude talking about "punishment methods" who the hell uses those anyways?

Apparently some of the same people who come here and complain about him.[]

Here's a decent CM interview from the Diane Rehm Show on NPR:
[linkhttp://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/06/04/20.php#10737]http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/06/04/20.php#10737[/link]
And it's not a fluff piece.

Perhaps his "people" have read through a few dog boards and don't want him to have to spend an hour debating the definition of a single word. [8D]

Perhaps his "people" aren't deaf, dumb, and blind and realise that there is a difference in honestly seeking and sharing knowledge, and putting Cesar into a discussion with overly self-righteous, emotional people with personal agendas who have openly condemed, smeared, and twisted what he's trying to teach?

Perhaps his "people" understand operant conditioning very well, and do not feel it's appropriate to reward his attackers for their bad and very unprofessional behavior towards Cesar?

Yeah, that's it. Don't reward or "positively" reinforce the extremists for their bad behavior. Just ignore the bad behavior until it stops. But then again, some of his attackers seem to go by the belief that "negative" attention is better than no attention at all and a self-righteous attack is very "self-rewarding" to an extremists with an agenda...the bite is the reward. []

Great post Angelique, but I was wondering where is the source that says his "people" won't allow him on any kind of panel discussion anyway?  He addressed the issue himself in the interview.  I don't think he needs his "people" to make that decision for him.

The whole world is not out to get CM.  I actually read an artical in Dog Fancy *I think that's what it was* that was very favorable to him, and I'm sure more dog people read that than listened to some random talk radio program.  Heck, I get Chicago radio stations, am a fan of talk radio, am obviously a dog lover, and I still didn't know that show existed.

One thing that I LOVE about CM is that for him it's all about the dog.  With the exception of BSL he stays out of this political crap that evidently comes with dog training.  I just wish that some of his fans would take a hint from him.  You don't see him bashing other trainers or methods, but I see it repeatly from his supporters.  He seems to set out an example of balence and open mindedness, and as someone who has begun reading his lastest book I find that such hostility from some of his fans only takes away from some of the good things that he has done and the messages that he puts out there.

So he didn't get a fair shake on a talk radio show.  Big deal.  Have you guys ever listened to talk radio consistantly?  Most of the hosts have an agenda of some sort--if they were complately neutral nobody would listen.  Life goes on.

Just my [sm=2cents.gif].

I'm fascinated by the focus on cultural differences in these interviews.  CM especially keeps referring to "dogs in America."  Any thoughts on how cultural relativity is factoring into this difference of philosophies?

ORIGINAL: Trevell

Great post Angelique, but I was wondering where is the source that says his "people" won't allow him on any kind of panel discussion anyway?  He addressed the issue himself in the interview.  I don't think he needs his "people" to make that decision for him.

 
I don't think Cesar let's them make the final decisions, but I wouldn't throw him into a terminology debate with one of his rabid "critics" who not only has an entire website devoted to bashing, smearing, discreditting, and misrepresenting him, but also can't even grasp any concept which cannot be explained through basic learning theory terminology.
 
Cesar's main focus is social learning and fulfillment by design . Most of his "critics" can't even think outside of the conditioning box. They don't "get-it", and they don't want to. They just want to be "right" and prove him "wrong". There is no middle ground or even an attempt at understanding where he is coming from.
 
To have a productive conversation, you need a common point of reference. In this situation, this can only take place when everyone in the discussion understands all of the topics and terminologies on both sides of the table. 
 
Cesar is obviously studying about basic learning theory from what I've been reading and seeing lately. He is open to new information and learning...can't say the same for most of his closed minded critics who believe their "Positive Only" way is the "only" way.
 
Another difference is the starting point. Cesar does not shape, manipulate, or condition the symtoms of frustration and instability through "training". He addresses the source of the problem (usually the owners) through teaching social communication, leadership principles, fulfillment by design, and understanding the specific psychology of the dog. []

ORIGINAL: silverserpher

I'm fascinated by the focus on cultural differences in these interviews.  CM especially keeps referring to "dogs in America."  Any thoughts on how cultural relativity is factoring into this difference of philosophies?

 
If you go to Mexico you will see that maybe only a small portion of the dogs here in USA have the same problems, the cultural difference actually i really think makes a difference, maybe i should open a new thread to talk about it

Probably wouldn't see as many people carrying dogs around in their handbags or using them to accessorize their wardrobes either. 

ORIGINAL: snownose

I'd love to see one of the positive only people come on over here and work with my dog. What to do when she could care less that you are ignoring her, doesn't want a treat and yawns at the clicker. Or, what would they do when she growls--completely unprovoked-- at them after she's been in the same room with them for 10 minutes already?

My Husky/chow mix is very stubborn, not food motivated what so ever, and too lazy to get a treat if he has to work for it. I mentioned, I might try clicker training, unless he develops a love for something that will not work.

CM has helped me quiet a bit in dealing with him.[]

IMO, he is an expert.

Not every dog is food motivated, but if you are able to find the things that do motivate your own dog, you can still use them to advantage in positive training, or clicker training.  I usually ask my students to make a list (in order of importance) of at least 5-10 things their dog likes.  You can tell a lot about their relationship to the dog by their answers...but once they start thinking that way, it's nice to hear some of the things they come up with.  I've had them tell me stuff like: "going to the ice cream stand", "rolling in poop", or "getting wet".  Well, I might not want to use #2 as a reinforcer, but what is better than getting a great sit/stay at the beach and rewarding the dog by tossing his bumper in the water for a good game of fetch?  A reinforcer is just something the dog IS willing to work for.  Sometimes, it is food or a toy, sometimes it's attention from the handler, sometimes it's a dip in the deep blue.

Well, first, I'm not a hater.  I simply disagree that this guy is God's gift to dogs in every facet of his methodology.  And, I find it interesting that you can both post your thanks to me for the input on Willow's problems, but then come back and say that you'd like to see one of us come over here and work with your dog, as if we wouldn't have a thing to offer.

 
Anne, I wasn't necessarily meaning you personally were a hater or even that I was thinking of you when I posted that.  I certainly did enjoy your response though. 
 
It sort of makes me think that maybe this whole time that I've been thinking there is still so much more that could be done--that I only went "so far" with her---that maybe that's all that's possible for a dog like her. 
 
And, I am not one that thinks CM is like a God.  I thanked you because all of your advice worked for me.  I like CM because I can see where some of what he does could/would be helpful too.  I don't think I have to be all on one side. 
 
And, I asked the question because all of my real life experiences have been the trainer getting frustrated as heck and suggesting either directly or indirectly that I put Willow to sleep. 
 
Anyway, thanks for the response and I hope you didn't take it as a personal attack--it wasn't meant to be. 

ORIGINAL: willowchow

Well, first, I'm not a hater.  I simply disagree that this guy is God's gift to dogs in every facet of his methodology.  And, I find it interesting that you can both post your thanks to me for the input on Willow's problems, but then come back and say that you'd like to see one of us come over here and work with your dog, as if we wouldn't have a thing to offer.

Anne, I wasn't necessarily meaning you personally were a hater or even that I was thinking of you when I posted that.  I certainly did enjoy your response though. 

It sort of makes me think that maybe this whole time that I've been thinking there is still so much more that could be done--that I only went "so far" with her---that maybe that's all that's possible for a dog like her. 

And, I am not one that thinks CM is like a God.  I thanked you because all of your advice worked for me.  I like CM because I can see where some of what he does could/would be helpful too.  I don't think I have to be all on one side. 

And, I asked the question because all of my real life experiences have been the trainer getting frustrated as heck and suggesting either directly or indirectly that I put Willow to sleep. 

Anyway, thanks for the response and I hope you didn't take it as a personal attack--it wasn't meant to be. 

Thanks for that Lori.  I guess you know by now that I think it is always an owner's choice whether to opt for euthanasia.  My opinion is that if you own an aggressive dog, you must understand the necessity for managing it so that it poses no danger to the public.  IMO, you have clearly demonstrated that you are committed to that type of management of your dog.  As a trainer, I would be so much more inclined to continue to work with such a dog/owner combination than I would with someone I think is not so capable, and might present a liability to themselves, the dog, the public, and me.
Unfortunately, I think that what happens to most owners of aggressive dogs is that they want to cure the aggression problem, and they haven't been able to work with someone who can just get them through the basics of teaching attention and self control to such a dog.  As we see, if the reinforcer isn't food, we have to figure out what it is, and we have to begin at the dog's comfort level, not adding triggers or distractions that the dog is unable to handle.  With some dogs, it's a very slow process.  And, frankly, any trainer that pressed my dog to the point of biting would not be high on my list.  A bite is a bite, and if that person needs treatment, it's a reportable bite - something I try to keep off a dog's "record" if I can. []   A bite history is not a good thing for your homeowner's insurance or a dog's ability to be rehomed.

Not every dog is food motivated, but if you are able to find the things that do motivate your own dog, you can still use them to advantage in positive training, or clicker training. I usually ask my students to make a list (in order of importance) of at least 5-10 things their dog likes. You can tell a lot about their relationship to the dog by their answers...but once they start thinking that way, it's nice to hear some of the things they come up with. I've had them tell me stuff like: "going to the ice cream stand", "rolling in poop", or "getting wet". Well, I might not want to use #2 as a reinforcer, but what is better than getting a great sit/stay at the beach and rewarding the dog by tossing his bumper in the water for a good game of fetch? A reinforcer is just something the dog IS willing to work for. Sometimes, it is food or a toy, sometimes it's attention from the handler, sometimes it's a dip in the deep blue.

 
 
This made a lot of sense, but my dilemma is the things he loves a lot I would have a hard time using with clicker training. He loves to play and romp with the other dogs, he loves to run like a mad dog with the other dogs, but when the GSDs poop out he is still going with the Husky/Mal. mix, I guess the Husky part makes him a marathon runner.[]
 
So, how do I incorporate his love for that with clicker training when timing and reward is everything?
The clicker would be just about worthless with all that noise of playing with the other dogs he would never be able to hear it. When training him I can't have all the other dogs around, that is where he looses all concentration, the little he has......water he hates, treats are fine as long as they are delivered in his crate or given to him while relaxed. Seriously, this dog will not come and get a treat for a sit or a down. I have had success with using words and hand signals, but for the most part I had to involve "touch" to teach him what I want him to do.
 
 

I believe that successful people many times become 'targets' for others and CM is one of those people. I think many naysayers have watched CM's much edited episodes then base an opinion on what they have seen in a half an hour. To many, it seems like CM is a magician. I mean, he magically changes dogs in a matter of minutes, doesn't he?On the other hand, I hope these critics aren't so naive to believe that Cesar can change a dog with a snap of a finger and a "tsst" sound. These things take time and if the dog owner doesn't follow Cesar's instructions, all is lost.I also believe that Cesar probably never imagined in his wildest dreams that he would become so famous when he started out and I feel that he only wants what is best for the dogs who have one last chance left. Cesar probably expected to run into critics long ago and knows how to tactfully handle these people. Also, I'm sure he smiles all the way to the bank!!Just by watching his face and listening to him talk, he appears to be in complete understanding of what dogs need and what dog owners need to know. Any one in the dog training/behavioral profession absolutely should be open to new ideas and suggestions. As for people who put their dogs in purses and dressing the dogs in fancy clothes, I think these people should donate the money they spend on designer bags and expensive little outfits to an animal fund of their choice. They also should volunteer at their local animal shelter cleaning out kennels and walking the dogs. I see (mostly) women with these little dogs in purses and large bags and to me it seems like the dog is only an accessory and not a living, breathing animal. The dog is usually wide-eyed and trembling and the woman is usually dressed up in expensive clothes, lots of bling, hair and nails perfect and I'm standing behind her at the counter waiting to check out while she's digging in her Gucci purse trying to decide what credit card to use! UGH!!!