Whole Dog

that you believe that the handler is always the problem and that genetics and individual dogs' temperaments are not ever a factor?

 
I don't believe that this is always the case.
What I do believe is that more responsiblity lays with the owners, more than they are willing to accept.
 
CM has just been an addition to me, not what I live by. I have been around dogs way before he ever showed up on tv.

genetics and individual dogs' temperaments are not ever a factor?

I don't think CM has ever said that breed or individual dog personality is not a factor. He usually emphasizes that you have to fulfill the dog's *needs* first. He teaches that the dog's need are (in order) 1. Exercise 2. Discpline 3. Affection.

Exercise is pretty obvious, but discipline gets misunderstood. By discpline he doesn't mean you beat your dog or punish him. He means rules, boundaries and limitations. Give your dog clear and consistant rules so he isn't confused about what you expect. Affection is easy! Usually people do the affection *first* because it fulfills our own needs - but not necessarily the dog's most important need.

CM often takes the dog's breed into consideration. He has recommended herding training for a herding dog. He's had a retriever trainer to work with a retreiving dog. He's used dog backpacks and swimming and other forms of exercise. He places special emphasis on the tendency of pits, rotts and bulldogs to be determined and aggressive and often uses the term "gladiator" to describe them.

But I think one thing he describes in his book the doesn't come across in the show is the order that he uses to determine the importance of the dog's needs. First and most important are the needs that all dogs in general possess. Then the needs of the breed, then the needs of the individual dog.

Snownose, thanks for the reply.

Interesting. I also think that handlers are responsible for a lot more than they often think they are. I think that just about everybody who loves dogs thinks that this is true. People can be so thoughtless, and can waste a lot of time justifying their behavior when they could be fixing their dogs' behavior. There is a really irritating thread going in Housetraining Crates and Puppies about this right now... a woman with a young lab who won't exercise him appropriately wants help, but when the advice is consistently "exercise your dog more" she makes excuses.

I tend to look at this in Skinnerian terms--to say well, there's this behavior I don't like, and so what should I do to change the behavior? And I sense that CM-folks see it a different way. I keep things focused on "well, that's a nasty behavior" because it's less emotional, and I can make better decisions about what to do when I am not emotional. That includes blaming myself or making an assesment about my dog's innocence or guilt.

What I hear from CM folks sounds more emotional--the dog is *right* and you, owner, are *wrong* and that emotionality makes me curious. Do you see it in emotional terms? Am I seeing it correctly?

I hope you are right and it is good to hear that interpretation.  But I got the impression from CM and Fear responses, that CM does not even consider age.  Maybe it will be helpful to fisher6000 to read those responses.  I think I was asking the same thing in that thread as here.

What I hear from CM folks sounds more emotional--the dog is *right* and you, owner, are *wrong* and that emotionality makes me curious. Do you see it in emotional terms? Am I seeing it correctly?

 
I am probably going to get bashed for this one.[8D]
 
Watching CM's shows has shown me how simple it can be......dogs are crazy or go crazy, dogs being all over the owner, no discipline.....I guess it's almost like going to your friends house and witnessing his or her children being totally wild. You say to yourself "Darn, somebody needs to do something about that".
 
You watch CM's show and it has the same effect, and you think to yourself how easy it can be, but we make it all so complicated.
 
I wanted to add, that I am amazed everyday how much CM is hated on this board by some member, at the same time the same members take so much time out of their day to hover and post on a CM thread.
I think there are emotions involved on both sides[]

This is total hear-say, but....

I was at the dog park this week and talking to a guy who owned a gorgeous pyranees. Marlowe barks his sweet head off while at the dog park. He's compelled. He actually usually doesn't bark in the house but it's like his legs are connected to his vocal cords, if he's running unleashed, he's barking. Anyway, the guy asked me if I watched the Dog Whisperer, and I just shook my head because it is the truth that I don't have cable and don't watch it on a regular basis. I was sort of hoping this wasn't going to turn in to me being lectured.

But no actually the guy told the story of an episode where the owners thought there was something wrong with their beagle and that maybe he was aggressive because he barked at other dogs while on walks. And the guy I was talking to said that Cesar told them that he's not aggressive at all--beagles bark. The little dog was just doing what he thought his job was: "Here! I found something! Look! Look!" He pointed out that he was holding the dog's leash with just one finger so the only reason the dog appeared to be lunging when being handled by the owners was because the owners were pulling back on the leash and the dog's oppositional reflex kicked in (don't know if Cesar used that term but by the way the guy was describing it, that's what it sounds like was happening).

So in that case, Cesar very clearly told the owners that their dog's breed determined this, as it turns out totally not dangerous, behavior and that it wasn't really a problem at all. The main problem was in the owners handling the dog as if it were aggressive and not just a beagle letting them know that it found something cool.

I certainly won't bash you, but I will gently call you out on some passive-aggressive behavior.

Why not just say it's not emotional for you, or even that I am wrong? Why slam "some people" for posting? What's with the sideways talk?

I think for CM it's less about WHY something is happening and more about how the handler should deal with what's going on NOW.

I think the defensiveness on the part of CM fans is for the most part due to the accusations that his methods are abusive and barbaric. We tend to get completely wrapped up in debates over alpha rolls, leash corrections and even the use of the word "dominant."

The emphasis he puts on exercise, calm leadership and clear boundaries - which nearly all trainers recommend - gets lost in the shuffle.

There is a quote by Pat Parelli (who is a horse trainer for those that don't know): "If your horse says no, you either asked the wrong question or asked the question wrong."  I really think this applies to dogs as well.  My dog may be born with certain breed specific urges, but it is up to me the teach her proper behavior and manage any issues that do come up in a responsible manner.  My dogs are animals, I am the human, and as such I have to take the responsibility for behaviors the dog does or does not display.

If you think about the pit bull example for a minute, think of this--I went to the IKC show in Chicago last and spent quite a bit of time in the Amstaff benching area.  It was VERY crowded, and there were dogs all over, crates right next to each other, intact males, females in heat, all passing right next to each other and spending outside of crates visiting with humans.  There was not a snarl, growl, raised lip or even hard look in sight, and believe me, I spent a lot of time there and I was looking for it.  You cannot tell me that in that whole group of dogs there was not one that had DA in his/her genes.  However, if you watched the handlers, they were on top of it.  They were relaxed but watchful, careful to keep their dogs attention on themselves or the people the dogs were meeting.  They new how their dogs were expected to behave and taught the dogs to behave that way.  If you read Jamie's posts about her experiences with her Amstaffs, you'll usually here how she has taught them to behave nicely around other dogs.

I think the defensiveness on the part of CM fans is for the most part due to the accusations that his methods are abusive and barbaric. We tend to get completely wrapped up in debates over alpha rolls, leash corrections and even the use of the word "dominant."

I think that's true, jenhuedepohl. I was hoping that this thread wouldn't become about that.

I am also interested in the difference between what CM says (I saw the beagle episode) and what happens on this forum, specifically, awsomedog's assertion that being careful about dog aggression with pit bulls is inappropriate, or espencer's long-ago assertion that eley's fila was not genetically disposed to being aggressive.

I think that most trainers are very interested in how to handle an issue, and less interested in why it is happening. I know that mine is.

Sillysally, I think that Jamie's experience is very relevant to this discussion. She probably has a lot to say about what the dog brings and what the human brings to any situation, as well as how important it is to be responsible for making the best outcome possible.

What I hear from CM folks sounds more emotional--the dog is *right* and you, owner, are *wrong* and that emotionality makes me curious. Do you see it in emotional terms? Am I seeing it correctly?

 
 
Ok, re-do.....[8D]
 
I think there is less emotion involved, it is more basic..........CM wants to teach the owner to be calm, and not let the emotions show through to provide a stable base for the dog.
 
Basic, simple and to the point is how I would describe that.

I don#%92t want to part ways because of the WHYS and the NOW interpretation of CM ways.  Those are the two areas that can not be omitted in anyone#%92s teaching.  I have to find out by going directly to the source.  I see values in CM ways and some similarities in my own handling of dogs.    It was very obvious to me that he changed his approached because of the size of the dog by changing the owner#%92s collar on the dog and also strength leveraging.  Those are the types of things I want to understand rather than saying be calm and assertive and that fixes all because the dog lives in the moment.

Thanks. I appreciate your restatement.

(and FWIW, I don't ever mind if you tell me that you think I'm wrong... I just think it's more productive to keep things above board.)

I think you're right. I think that CM is consistently talking in non-emotional terms, like most trainers do.