People Magazine Article on CM

People feelings while comparing Cesar Millan with Ian Dunbar:
 
[linkhttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL&hw=The+Anti+Cesar+Millan&sn=001&sc=1000]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL&hw=The+Anti+Cesar+Millan&sn=001&sc=1000[/link]

"Claudia Kawczynska, editor of Bark magazine, is one of Ian Dunbar's many fans. "It's irritating to see Millan treated as the expert. Ian is an animal behaviorist with decades of experience," she says, "He should be where Millan is."

"Dr. Patricia McConnell, author of "For the Love of a Dog: Understanding Emotion in Your Best Friend" and the animal behaviorist on Animal Planet's "Petline," goes as far as to say that Millan has put dog training back 20 years. "Dunbar is a world authority," she says, "and he should be the one with the celebrity."

"Though he hosted five years of a TV training show in England, "Dogs With Dunbar," Hollywood never bit on it, or on his other ideas"
 
(emphasis added)

Words speak for themselves
 
I didnt say anything ok? those are direct quotes []

Actually I enjoy any show with animals (except the hunting stuff!). I enjoy watching Barking Mad and Good Dog U. Although, the best part of Barking Mad is the horse trainer.

Since Cesar does not focus much on the actual "training" part as far as teaching a specific command, agility, protection work, etc... on his show, I think it would be good to get a show out there on NGC, which shows actual training.

This should not be an "us against them" situation in the first place. My only problem is with the bad behavior and lies of the extremists, whether they are "Positive Only" or Koehler only.

Last I heard they were going to get an animal trainer, who will demonstrate clicker-training on a variety of animals to teach them tricks and specific behaviors.

If they get a dog trainer, I hope it's Suzanne Clothier or Patricia McConnell.

I haven't read the People article yet.

And yes, there is some extreme jealousy and spiteful sniping going on by a certain faction of the dog training community.

So, gilbyd, you'd be against having a gentle dog trainer? I don't see anything wrong with a little variety and I certainly don't see anything wrong with being gentle. Though I don't know how they're going to swing this because Cesar Millan has it written into his contract that NGC can't have another dog training show while his is on the air.

It is entirely possible to really disagree with the methods on that show and not be jealous, or misinformed, or misunderstanding. You really can disagree for the pure reason that you don't think the science supports what he's doing. Really. Honest.

You know in the Soviet Union they used to lock up dissidents in mental hospitals because they figured that only totally crazy people would be against communism. You can disagree with something on pure principal. There doesn't have to be an ulterior motive.

"Actual science" and learning theories are valid fields. Where it ceases to be "actual science" and where learning theory fails, is when you only pick out portions of what you like from the theory, dump the rest, and still want to call it "science".

There are four quadrants.

"Positive Only" or "Punishment Only" are man-made concepts, which exist nowhere in nature.

Also, learning theory as far as operant conditioning goes, is only part of the whole picture when you live with an animal (dog) as a family member.

In this situation, an understanding of the "social" and "behavioral" dynamics should also be incorporated for balance and the safety of all who come in contact with the dog. 

The commitment to "first do no harm" should apply not only to the dog you are working with, but to every living being which comes in contact with that dog.

The more controlled the environment (such as a dolphin tank) the more you may get away with using only two quadrants. Everything changes when we live with an animal as a family member, or when someone attempts to live with a dolphin (read John C. Lilly MD - Lilly on Dolphins).

I see training as only being one third of the whole. I see only using two of the four quadrants as reducing the training portion to only half of it's possible value.

JMHO

I know maybe they can use the same dog on both shows.  CM fixes the dog and then the trainer makes the dog liveable in a common Joe's home.  Then both professionals can call the dog at the same time and who ever the dog goes to is the better professional. 

ORIGINAL: Angelique

"Positive Only" or "Punishment Only" is a man-made concept which exists nowhere in nature.

I see training as only being one third of the whole. I see only using two of the four quadrants as reducing the training portion to only half of it's possible value.

 
I agree, wild packs of dogs dont have it and still live in a balance enviroment

Well, you can certainly disagree about what the science says and the usefulness of it to having an animal that shares your home. All valid points. But that doesn't mean that the source of the disagreement is jealousy, or a total misunderstanding, or some kind of nefarious secret agenda. Scientists, all looking at the exact same data, have disagreements all the time. I'd be totally out of a job if everyone just fell into agreement after a study was published. We do replication studies and continuations of studies and go to conferencees and publish papers precisely because there is disagreement as to what that first study meant.

As for purely positive, as in trainers who only use positive reinforcement (in the operant conditioning sense) at all times, I've never encountered one. Not on the web, not in books, not in person. I'm sure they're ot there, but I think that's a bit of a straw man. Similarily, I don't think there's many all-punishment trainers out there either. But there are trainers who stive to be as positive as possible because they believe that is how animals learn best, based on what they've read and experienced and tried. Because there is research that suggests that of the four quadrents of operant conditioning, it is the +R that is best for learning. You can disagree with that, but those studies are out there. People aren't just making this stuff up to piss off everyone else.

That's wonderful, I welcome more dog training shows. I watch Cesar Millan even though I don't like his philosophy or all of his techniques; doesn't mean I don't find the show interesting. I'm a little confused since I haven't seen the People article, is Ian Dunbar hosting the new show or is he a tangential topic?

ORIGINAL: DPU

I know maybe they can use the same dog on both shows.  CM fixes the dog and then the trainer makes the dog liveable in a common Joe's home. 

Actually he has being doing that twice already, with the one that lives in the fire department he brought a cliquer trainer and with the lab that belongs to the guy who wrote "Manny and Me" (?) he also recommended a cliquer trainer (both dogs are in the video thread but both videos dont show the cliquer trainer part)

ORIGINAL: DPU
Then both professionals can call the dog at the same time and who ever the dog goes to is the better professional. 

Cesar would not be able to call the dog because thats not an area of his expertise, he does not teaches commands, he deals more with the psychology part of the problem, just like a psychologist is not going to tell you how to have a better swim technique []

How a trainer "sells" themself to the general public, where they bend their own rules, and what they say about "others" outside of their belief systems, is all a money mill marketing strategy.

I hear sometimes it takes over a half an hour of the first training class, just to smear their competion.

Buyer beware.

In case anyone missed this link:

[linkhttp://samthedogtrainer.com/Articles_Clicker%20Training.htm]http://samthedogtrainer.com/Articles_Clicker%20Training.htm[/link]

I think that there has been a growing movement of people who want to see NGC give equal time to those who are training with operant conditioning, versus physical coercion, which is part of what Cesar uses.  I think it was jones who posted that he pinned a puppy on a recent episode.  You would not find that done by someone who clicker trains, or uses mostly positive training.  I know that people have been emailing NGC, myself included, to also have positive training and behavioral techniques highlighted on the network.  I think that viewers can then choose one method or another for themselves. 
After all, Animal Planet had Uncle Matty, who is a traditional trainer, but also gave air time to Barking Mad.  I don't see why anyone would oppose another network choosing to provide another point of view besides CM.  If you are really interested in knowledge and learning about all training methods, and all behavioral modification methods, why would that be so awful?

One thing you can say about Cesar is that he is NOT JUST a "dog person' he is also a 'people person' meaning people feel at ease...not talked down to, he is charismatic, down to Earth and never once have I seen him look down his nose at anyone. He is really, really humble...and it is genuine.
 
People who ask for help with their dogs have often left it til the very last minute...and they feel bad about it and know they did wrong. The last thing they need is people telling them "well you should have done this..." etc. I do see a bit of that even here at this forum. Like the dog....Cesar lives in "the now" and I have never really seen him address anything but the now...and the future.
 
Now...other trainers may have all this...but what I see out in society is that people like Cesar, don't grow on trees, and people drawn strongly to work with animals, esp dogs often have less than stellar opinions on their fellow man, and it shows..
 
Heck I admit being jealous of Cesar...his confidence with dogs and his real genuine charisma...I ain't got it...lmao!

I think you are right about his ability to talk to people and make them feel comfortable, but don't you think there are other trainers and behaviorists that would be equally facile at doing that and be able to deal with the public and the TV audience in a similar way while presenting a differing point of view with regard to rehabbing a problem dog?  I used to watch McConnell on TV and not only was she very good at issues, she was lighthearted and funny at times, too.  (I found her to be that way in person, too.)  I think that People just ran a story that was pitched to them by the faction that is disappointed in the methods that CM uses, not him as an individual.  But, perhaps, if NGC enlists a positive trainer, too, they will have the good sense to make it one of the more charismatic ones, or at least someone who won't offend.  (Although the ratings might go up if it was someone like Simon on American Idol, LOL)

I think we should remember that we live in a great country, and we have the freedom to turn off the tv, or change the channel.[]
 
I would hate for people to dictate what I can or cannot watch, just because they don't agree.[:'(]