Food aggression

I can only second what Chuffy and Janet said.  Yikes.

Thanks for the differences of opinions.  We feed Scout alone tonight.  He did not eat a lot but we did not have an incident.  I guess that is a good thing.  I am enrolling Scout in basic training classes that start on Monday.  This will be his second group of classes he has taken is is short life.  I will talk with the trainer to see what is the best approach to this.  Thanks for the advice!  

If i were to be going to a trainer,I would print out this whole thread and see what the trsainer thinks...I would be curios as to how they react to some of the responses.

Lookingoutforscout, this post gives references for "resource guarding":
[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/m.asp?m=311555][color=#000000]http://forum.dog.com/asp/m.asp?m=311555[/link]
 
[size=3]Your issue sounds mostly like dog-dog aggression.  A good resource for this is
Donaldson, Jean, [font="times new roman"][size=2][font=verdana][size=2]Fight! A Practical Guide To the Treatment of Dog-Dog Aggression[/size][/font][/size], 2004
[linkhttp://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB798]http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB798[/link]
 
Aggression between dogs over food occurs frequently.  The usual way of handling this is just to keep the dogs separated when they have food (feed in crate or in a different room).  [color=#0000cc]What really concerns me is that Scout went after Maybel later without food present.  If I understood you correctly, this is over and beyond most dog-dog food aggression.  It could be resource guarding of you and/or your husband.[/color]
 
At one year Scout is a doggie teenager so he will be developing his adult behaviors over the next year.  Since he is a black lab mix who is possibly art pit bull and/or chow, you need to be watching for general dog-dog aggression problems.  Pit bulls can be very sweet to people and at the same time absolutely vicious to other dogs.
 
I don't want to scare you, but to be safe, for right now I would not allow Scout to be alone with the females without a crate, gate, or door between them. I would also have Scout drag a leash.  At feeding time don't let him out of his crate until the other dogs are finished and you have removed their bowls and leftover food.
 

[font=verdana][color=#000000][size=3]Both girls will eat in their crate but Scout will not.  ... As soon as you let Scout out of the crate, he will turn around and stand outside of his crate and eat but WILL NOT eat in his crate. 

[/size][/color][/font]
What does he do while he is in his crate ignoring his food?  Does he stare at the other dogs?  Pace?  Whine?  Is this when the "demon growls" occur?
 
If I were you I would work on increasing my pack leader skills and on teaching a very strong "leave it" command.
[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/m.asp?m=298804]http://forum.dog.com/asp/m.asp?m=298804[/link]
 
[color=#000000][size=3]If Scout is intact, I would have him neutered ASAP.[/size][/color][/font][/size][/color]

Scout only made those scary sounds when in front of the food bowl when my husband tried to stop him for eating in Roxy's bowl.  He does not pace or do anything out of the ordinary in the cage when the other two have their food in their cages he just stands up in his cage. If I give them a milk bone in their cages he saves it for when I let them out.  I will notice that he has one, so I will not let him out until I have let both girls outside.  He will pick it up and take it into the living room and eat it before going outside.  He is netured.  I think that perhaps the reason why she attacked Maybel after the food was put away was because it was still a stressful stituation and my husband had forced him to submit/lie down and perhaps that was the wrong thing to do.  Although we have both had dogs as we were growning up this is the first time we have been the "master" of the dogs.  We never imagined having such a difficult dog as Scout.  We thought with Scout being mostly lab that he would be hyper, yes, but not so difficult.  But we love him and we will work with him.  We are not going to give up on him.  He is a great dog 95% of the time!
 
I am not sure why it was suggested that we can't leave Scout free with the girls.  He is just aggressive over the food.  All 3 dogs are left out of their crates at night and are doing just fine.  We don't leave them alone when we leave and we watch them all other times.  When they are outside, I check on them quite often.  They each do their own thing outside.  Scout tend to want to be inside anyway and stands at the door.  Maybel, the beagle mix, has her nose to the ground, of course. And Roxy, is soaking up the sun, (when we have here in Indiana).   They do play together alot in the house and the yard but they stop when we tell them too.

 Anytime a dog exhibits any type of aggression,and there are kids in the house,it is probably best to err on the side of caution.

 I would definitely talk to the kids and make sure they have a very good understanding of what to do,and what not to do should the dog confront them,or if the dogs start fighting near the kids.

 My kids are constantly drilled on what to do in case one of the dogs were to act out,even though they are never left alone with them.
 

 I had the most well behaved Golden retrievers,and still they were never left unnatended with the kids for any length of time.

 i certainly wouldn't want to encounter an animal that was near my weight,having all the weapons a dog possesses,and have to worry about it acting out.

  I trust my dogs completely,but you never know what could happen..A lapse in judgement by one of the kids could very well end up being serious.

 .

 

ORIGINAL: Cane Cors

I have four dogs and they eat together in the same room.  They do not share the same bowl and they do not jump on each other. If one of my dogs finished his bowl first, he leaves out of the room or lay down on the floor.

If that was my dog, I would put it on prong collar. I would attach a leash and get a bowl of canned food to make him watch another dog eating. If he growls or tries to go after, I would correct him right away. Until he submits. This is something I would do to remind him daily.

So your answer is to pop a prong on and correct the hell out of the dog until it submits? what exactly is it learning - certainly not that you are reliable or fair, certainly not that food is going to come. You are teaching a dog that it needs to be TENSE AS HELL when food is around because not only does it feel anxious and protective to begin with, but now mom/dad is going to correct the HELL out of the dog by repeatedly yanking on a prong.

ORIGINAL: Cane Corso
I think you misunderstood how I was going to deal this. Prong collars were not use to harm the dog and I hardly have to do that many corrections with a prong collar than a flat collar. I agree people should learn how to use prong collar properly before use it. When I say I would confront, it does not I am fighting the dog in aggression. I am confronting the dog and making him submit to me. Mind you, I have three dominant breeds and they are not similar to herding breeds. They expect a mental challenage all the time, if the rule has gotten weaker. They will take over RIGHT away, there's no expectation. 

My dogs are not for "average" pet owner who has no desire to confront.

Dear, if your dogs are so "hard" and not for the "Average" pet owner, it would take more than a few prong collar pops to teach it.

Making the dog submit to you? By correcting it with a prong? You've watched a little too much National Geographic and  your calm submissive nature is flying out the window.

I've got a doberman here that can take a prong correction pretty much without any response whatsoever. He doesn't flick an ear, he doesn't crouch and hit the floor.I use a prong for fine tuning his obedience as we work at more advanced levels, but rarely actually have it on a live ring or the leash even attached to it - but I will switch out when needed. When my dog aggresses over food, I can control him with a WORD. I never needed to physically reprimand him, I never needed to constantly correct him physically to get a message through. And yet still...

The difference between you and me is that you still feed your dog in the different room.You are willing to seperate your dogs during feed time all the time. I do not have the time to put each one in a different room and feed. I refer to feed them together in the same room and learn how to respect each other. They knew that none of them is an alpha.  They had no desire to fight over the leadership because  they like the rule I made.  I'm being fair and firm.

... my youngest male doberman is still fed in another room. His aggression towards other animals during feeding time has NOTHING to do with his respect towards me, and it would make me an ass to assume he could eat in another room. If you don't have time to separate your dogs (how long can it take?) then consider that you may have too many dogs to handle then.

The difference between us is my dog respects me because I earned it - not because I corrected the hell out of him and he fears me. And the other difference is I am not stupid enough to believe that just because I trained my dog a certain way, that he will stop being a DOG. And the last difference would be, my dogs life, health and safety is not worth a notch in my belt about how I "trained" the food aggression out of him.

I live in a household with three male dobermans - I don't kid myself that any amount of training is going to stop my dogs from doing what dogs do when push comes to shove - which is why the three males don't get to spend free time with each other, two of them are never together PERIOD unless someone is physically touching each of them, and they all eat completely separate. I can have all three out on a leash, working obedience around each other, and they can even all sleep in the same room while we watch tv (and yes, even then - two males are literally laying WITH a person - not left loose in the room)- but the minute we stop with our diligence, is the minute when they are going to do what comes naturally. And as any responsible doberman owner will tell you - what comes naturally is a fight. Have we had a fight? Nope - but that doesn't mean I am going to wait for one to happen.

Aggression is not trained out of a dog. it is controlled and managed - and one slip up and it comes right back to *literally*, bite you in the ass.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Cane Corso, you appear to respond to every problem by suggesting that the person needs to "make the dog submit to you".

First:  Not all problems stem from "dominance".  Food aggression is frequently displayed by dogs who are NOT "alpha" - they are just scared another dog is going to take their food away and they do what Nature has programmed to do to fit them for survival.... A dog who does not eat starves and dies.  So they protect their food.  "Lower ranking" dogs in wild packs have also been seen to do this; defend what they have from a higher ranking individual.  In the dog-world, posession really is ten tenths of the law.  Frequently human actions inadvertantly compound the problem, or start it in the first place.

Second:  "Making a dog submit to you" sounds very confrontational and implies direct conflict between human and dog.  This is very often inadvisable..... often it is not the right technique for the dog and even if it IS (and I am dubious such an approach is ever a good one) it should be done with care and with the help of an experienced, ethical and compassionate professional and NOT on the advice of a faceless stranger on an internet forum. 

I would like to emphasise that there are ways to "make a dog submit to you" which DO NOT involve any kind of direct conflict or correctional device, and simply rely on attitude, calm and out-thinking the dog.

Would also like to emphasise that you should not deliver a correction with a prong collar.  It is not how they are intended to be used.  They are a self-correcting device. 
I fail to see how "making a dog's neck hurt" convinces him you are a benevolent leader, worthy of trust and respect.... it merely punishes a dog for an unwanted behaviour, it has sod-all to do with "leadership" IMO.  That is a seperate kettle of fish.

Amen Chuffy- I took a dog with a bite history and a lawsuit and trained him without a collar PERIOD and he became my first competition dog and the first dog I ever titled (even tho only at a novice level, his career was cut short by his sudden death).

We worked together because he wanted to work for me - because I was fair, just, earned his trust, and he knew that I was safe, would not ask things of him that he couldn't give, and would, above all - ALWAYS protect him.

I never needed to physically reprimand him, I never needed to constantly correct him physically to get a message through. And yet still...

So do I. What make you think you are that special? Shall I knee you? He he you are only making me laughing. Thanks for the humor!

His aggression towards other animals during feeding time has NOTHING to do with his respect towards me, and it would make me an ass to assume he could eat in another room. If you don't have time to separate your dogs (how long can it take?) then consider that you may have too many dogs to handle then. The difference between us is my dog respects me because I earned it - not because I corrected the hell out of him and he fears me

Maybe you have way many males too. I have three females and one male. We have heard in the past that female to female aggression is dangerous just like male to male aggression. You assume I was being abusive to my dogs and you are certainly WRONG! You haven't met my dogs and you have not seen me how I handle my dogs. I assure you have no idea what a round table is. Do you think I would put my rottweiler on a round table to work on his defense? NO WAY! Maybe you would unless you are that dumb enough.  I have four dogs, maybe three dogs for you is too much since you had to seperate them. I understand you want to tell me that four dogs were too much for me, but actually you are telling that to yourself in the mirror. I do not seperate my dogs for any reasons. They have learned that I am the authority period! I earned my trust in my dogs just like you have with your dog. Your dog respects you, but does he respect your other dogs? I assume no.

I live in a household with three male dobermans

Oh wow, you are really that special eh?

Aggression is not trained out of a dog. it is controlled and managed - and one slip up and it comes right back to *literally*, bite you in the ass.

Oh I am waiting for that to happen. I hardy can wait!

Well it's time to tone this thread down a notch.

"If that was my dog, I would put it on prong collar. I would attach a leash and get a bowl of canned food to make him watch another dog eating. If he growls or tries to go after, I would correct him right away. Until he submits. This is something I would do to remind him daily."

(At some basic level,all animlas with any kind of problem solving skills have the capacity to become frustrated.This method of food training seems to me to be a way to make a dog frustrated.Over a period of time,these situations of built up frustration and memory could very well come back to haunt you should he ever get a chance to release.Accidents happen,and they only take a second.)

"My dogs are not for "average" pet owner who has no desire to confront. "
(There should never be a desire to confront a dog.As a responsible pet owner,the desire should be to provide a non confrontational living environment that will limit, to the utmost ,situations where stand off will occur.Physical confrontation,such as alpha rolls,can very well lead to physical retaliation due to pent up anger inside the animal in question.Physically making your dog submissive is a short term answer that could very well lead to a long term problem.With my own challenging dog,I would liken it to a chess match.By outwitting the dog and getting my way without humiliating him,or laying a hand on him,He learns who is more wiley,and physicality never enters into it.Not everyone is 6'2" tall and weighs 210 lbs.That is enough to make some dogs remain submissive.That is why I will never suggest physically humbling a dog to anyone,and especially anonymously.With a challenging dog,your mind and will need to play a bigger part..I save physical touch for play time.The way I understand your methods,it seems more like a football game where physical dominance is key.)

I am not an animal behaviourist,but have been close to many dogs throughout my life.Somehow,I have managed to have good dogs that were well behaved and respectful of me.Huskies,Dobermans,a Rotty,goldens and now a WD.


I would just be very carefull about condoning physical domination to a broad spectrum of people ,some of whom may not be of great stature,or know better than not to challenge their dogs.

being relatively new to the board,you should also know that a majority of this board seems to prefer a NILIF and positive training methods..If you feel you are being attacked,try to state exactly why you think these methods work for you,and maybe your past experiences.there is no need on either side to start making snide remarks toward eachother.Training is mostly an opinion based idea.i just happen to believe in my methods and reasoning.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Well it's time to tone this thread down a notch.

 
I agree. [] 

Mhadog, very sage advise.

I have large dogs and foster large dogs.  Some of them come to me at different stages of emaciation.  Those dogs in the stage prior to food refusal are probably the ones that would be food aggressive.  They are the ones in extreme survival mode.  I have had many dogs in my home and so far I have not had to deal with food aggression….because I PLAN.  Regardless of what stage they are in, the new dog always eats separately until he can join the pack and eat together.  I have a hall off the kitchen that I baby gate that allows the new dog to see the others eat.  I feed the new dog first, then the other foster 2nd, and then my 3 Danes.  Alpha dog structures in my present does not exist.  All the dogs recognize my routine for preparing their food dishes and immediately go into their place where the bowl will be placed.  Each finish at different times and they just hang around their food dish or get a drink of water.  For the newest foster dog I have, it took her about a week to learn to go into the hallway.  It took her about another week to learn to stay in the hall until I released.  At this time the baby gate does not get secured but only propped up, loosely.  This week, the baby gate is gone.  Once I release, the dogs immediately go to each others food dish to see if there is any morsel left.  Now they only get a second to do this because it takes that long for me to get to the back door to let them out.  Going outside is a big time pleasure for them.

being relatively new to the board,you should also know that a majority of this board seems to prefer a NILIF and positive training methods..If you feel you are being attacked,try to state exactly why you think these methods work for you,and maybe your past experiences.there is no need on either side to start making snide remarks toward eachother.Training is mostly an opinion based idea.i just happen to believe in my methods and reasoning.

 
 I am done with this preach. One thing I only agree with you that NILIF and postive training method are the way to go. For other than that, I m done with this. I have no reason to make myself  look like a clown since you are entited to your own opinion as I am to my opinion. We can agree to disagree and leave it that.

ORIGINAL: DPU

Mhadog, very sage advise.

I have large dogs and foster large dogs.  Some of them come to me at different stages of emaciation.  Those dogs in the stage prior to food refusal are probably the ones that would be food aggressive.  They are the ones in extreme survival mode.  I have had many dogs in my home and so far I have not had to deal with food aggression….because I PLAN.  Regardless of what stage they are in, the new dog always eats separately until he can join the pack and eat together.  I have a hall off the kitchen that I baby gate that allows the new dog to see the others eat.  I feed the new dog first, then the other foster 2nd, and then my 3 Danes.  Alpha dog structures in my present does not exist.  All the dogs recognize my routine for preparing their food dishes and immediately go into their place where the bowl will be placed.  Each finish at different times and they just hang around their food dish or get a drink of water.  For the newest foster dog I have, it took her about a week to learn to go into the hallway.  It took her about another week to learn to stay in the hall until I released.  At this time the baby gate does not get secured but only propped up, loosely.  This week, the baby gate is gone.  Once I release, the dogs immediately go to each others food dish to see if there is any morsel left.  Now they only get a second to do this because it takes that long for me to get to the back door to let them out.  Going outside is a big time pleasure for them.

 
I appreciate a look into your feeding ritual and how you incorparate new members into your pack. It sounds like your dogs sense your boundaries and leadership without you having to make a big deal about it or get forceful.
 
In the end, a lot of this is about our attitude and presence rather a more physical control. IMO