Should they all be saved?

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

If you have a dog that bites people and dogs with such ferocity that it tends to cost about one thousand dollars (and a very scary emergency trip to the vet or doctor) whenever you make a handling error, this is not a theoretical question.

If you raised the dog, you most likely the cause for your dog biting anyone.

Having a truly dangerous dog means that you could wind up being legally and morally responsible for killing a small child or someone else's dog, or seriously maiming an adult.

Yep!...it sure does, and that's who should pay the real price...the owners who raise dogs to that out this way.

Trust me. Any person here faced with a truly dangerous dog will kill that dog in a heartbeat when faced with the moral and legal reality of owning such a dog. It's wrong to own a dog that could kill or seriously hurt someone. And it can ruin you financially.

 So how about focusing on raising dogs not to be this way, instead of killing them for human error ?

It is all well and good for people to talk about fixing dogs, because most "aggressive" dogs aren't particularly dangerous and IMO can be "fixed." Dangerous dogs are rare.

People shouldn't own a dog they can't handle...period.

But honestly, I laugh out loud when I think about people trying to explain some of the beliefs expressed about the "rights" of dogs to someone like a judge, or the parents of the kid your dog killed. Legally and morally, my dog is 100% my responsibility.

Can you quote the case where someone actually did that?

Who kills more? Dog to human, or human to dog?

Allow me. I'm not talking about putting a aggressive dog back out into the public. I'm talking about rahabing a dog so that he/she are no longer aggressive.

 
Can you describe an occasion where you, yourself, were unable to rehab a dog, but referred the dog to someone else who was able to?  What was different about their methods/technique/environment than yours?

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

Allow me. I'm not talking about putting a aggressive dog back out into the public. I'm talking about rahabing a dog so that he/she are no longer aggressive.

Can you describe an occasion where you, yourself, were unable to rehab a dog, but referred the dog to someone else who was able to?  What was different about their methods/technique/environment than yours?

There was one GSD mix who comes to mind that needed a bigger pack than I could provide for his situation, so I refered him to a friend in LA. And no it wasn't Cesar.

i'm not normally one for straddling the fence, but i can see both sides of this issue.

people are genuinely afraid of my dogs.  everywhere i go, they are afraid.  this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the behavior of my specific dogs, who are both under my control and no more aggressive than your average lab.  it have EVERYTHING to do with the media.

i will stick to the breed i know the best because i really haven't owned anything else as an adult- and i will group amstaffs and pitties together for the sake of this post, even though i believe there are very distinct and relevant differences.

when there is an attack- a genuine, hosptialization, reconstructive surgery or fatality attack- and a pit is involved, i believe that dog should be euthanized immediately.  pits are not supposed to be human aggressive under any circumstances, and attacks like this point to either bad "wiring" through irresponsible breeding or severe abuse.  in either case, i don't believe that it is responsible to attempt to manage this behavior.

where there is a snap, a warning bite, or a bite that results in broken skin but not severe injury,(by a pit now, remember)  i believe this behavior CAN and SHOULD be managed.  at least an attempt should be made.

i'm with brookcove on this one- predictability is the deciding factor.

what this really gets to the heart of is the tragedy of BYB and the abuse that brings this issue to light.  euthanizing a dog who has attacked may be necessary, but it is also fighting the problem from the wrong end.  i know the resources simply aren't there, but in the event of a *real* attack, the lineage of the dog should be determined and investigated.  the people responsible for breeding the dog should be investigated, and if necessary, held accountable for recklessly endangering the rest of us and our dogs by intentionally producing attack dogs. 

by arguing whether or not they should be saved, we are missing the point, which really is, "what made them that way to begin with?"  this is the way to combat BSL and media bias- to make people understand that HUMANS are ultimately responsible for the actions of a dog, whether it be through poor breeding, abuse, or lack of training. 

DPU  i can understand desire to keep the peace, but i think you have a lot to add to this conversation.  don't allow your self confidence to edit you.  take a stand!! i can see you have strong opinions and i encourage to to express them.  this IS still america!

quote:

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

If you have a dog that bites people and dogs with such ferocity that it tends to cost about one thousand dollars (and a very scary emergency trip to the vet or doctor) whenever you make a handling error, this is not a theoretical question.



If you raised the dog, you most likely the cause for your dog biting anyone.

fisher was not responsible for this dog's upbringing, or aggression, and, in fact, did everything a responsible owner would do to try to save her dog. 
 

Who kills more? Dog to human, or human to dog?

Human to dog, and that includes killing their spirits.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Who kills more? Dog to human, or human to dog?

Human to dog, and that includes killing their spirits.

Yep...I see that happen a lot when their treated like little humans. What strikes me as odd, is...it's same people calling me and some others mean and macho trainers, are same people who are so ready to kill (pts) dogs they think are aggressive. Which leads me to question their understanding of dog psychology, or lack of.

what this really gets to the heart of is the tragedy of BYB and the abuse that brings this issue to light.  euthanizing a dog who has attacked may be necessary, but it is also fighting the problem from the wrong end.  i know the resources simply aren't there, but in the event of a *real* attack, the lineage of the dog should be determined and investigated.  the people responsible for breeding the dog should be investigated, and if necessary, held accountable for recklessly endangering the rest of us and our dogs by intentionally producing attack dogs. 

by arguing whether or not they should be saved, we are missing the point, which really is, "what made them that way to begin with?"  this is the way to combat BSL and media bias- to make people understand that HUMANS are ultimately responsible for the actions of a dog, whether it be through poor breeding, abuse, or lack of training.

IMO...the smartest thing said so far in this thread.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

quote:

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

If you have a dog that bites people and dogs with such ferocity that it tends to cost about one thousand dollars (and a very scary emergency trip to the vet or doctor) whenever you make a handling error, this is not a theoretical question.



If you raised the dog, you most likely the cause for your dog biting anyone.

fisher was not responsible for this dog's upbringing, or aggression, and, in fact, did everything a responsible owner would do to try to save her dog. 
 

When I was saying you, I didn't mean...him, I meant who ever raised the dog from the begining. While some dogs may be "wired" wrong. The majority of unreasonable  aggression and dog bites come from bad raising. The humans fault. Bad breeding...the humans fault. Perhaps those of you leading the parade to kill (pts) dogs should start working harder to do something about the humans who are creating these problems to begin with.

Yes, humans have created the problem and I think they should have to foot the bill to fix the problem.

All dogs should be saved.  If we don't have the facilities, build them.  Hire trainers. Behavorists and even vets. Require volunteer work from everyone.

If they cannot be adopted out, keep them in a certain shelter and allow them to live out their lives in comfort and peace. 

We owe them nothing less.  If we (humans in general) are to be god like in our "dominion over animals" then we need to pony up to the responsibility.... instead of killing the animal because we are afraid that it may hurt one of "us", or just being too irresponsible to deal with it.

ORIGINAL: JM

Yes, humans have created the problem and I think they should have to foot the bill to fix the problem.

All dogs should be saved.  If we don't have the facilities, build them.  Hire trainers. Behavorists and even vets. Require volunteer work from everyone.

If they cannot be adopted out, keep them in a certain shelter and allow them to live out their lives in comfort and peace. 

We owe them nothing less.  If we (humans in general) are to be god like in our "dominion over animals" then we need to pony up to the responsibility.... instead of killing the animal because we are afraid that it may hurt one of "us", or just being too irresponsible to deal with it.

 
Cesar?...Is that you? []

[sm=rotfl.gif][sm=rotfl.gif]

Just when I was about to have a meltdown, you came along and made me laugh.  Thanks.

Cesar?...Is that you? []

JM must stand for...Judicious Minded.[]

awsomedog, no one here is leading any "parade to kill dogs" and I find that an extremely insulting remark, and a personal attack.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

awsomedog, no one here is leading any "parade to kill dogs" and I find that an extremely insulting remark, and a personal attack.

If your not in the parade, I'm not speaking to you, so get over yourself. and how many times have you actually taken shots at me? Including! (cause no one here is as stupid as you think) starting a thread called "macho trainers". Then your...what? what did i do stance was laughable. Did I throw a fit like the one your throughing now? No. My post was not directed at you (unless your in that parade). And I'm reading a lot of we've got to kill (pts) dogs in this thread.