Macho Trainers

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I don't care what kind of trainer or how "macho" the trainer is, that aggression is still going to be there.

And since your God you know that to be fact?

Aggression cannot be "cured".  That is indeed a fact.  Any trainer who suggested otherwise would be one I would run a mile from, or ten miles.  And one who is, IMO very deserving of the "macho" label.

ORIGINAL: Awsomedog

And are you the judge of at what level of aggression a dog should be killed (pts).

I recall you did not like the use of the word punishment on another thread because you believed its sole purpose was to make "correcting" sound worse than it was.  And here you do the same thing with the word "killing" in place of euthanise or PTS.  In essence, yes that is what people do.... kill dangeous animals.  Yet you seem to make out like that is a bad thing.... the tone of this statement makes it sound almost as if you view it as "murder"?  Is that the case?  Either way I can appreciate that the question might be better asked (and answered) on the "should they all be saved" thread....

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Aggression cannot be "cured".  That is indeed a fact.  Any trainer who suggested otherwise would be one I would run a mile from, or ten miles.  And one who is, IMO very deserving of the "macho" label.

Yo...God...what's up? I was wondering when you'd chime in. Oh wait...it's not God, it's a human saying that their opinion is fact. [sm=banghead002.gif]

I recall you did not like the use of the word punishment on another thread because you believed its sole purpose was to make "correcting" sound worse than it was.  And here you do the same thing with the word "killing" in place of euthanise or PTS.  In essence, yes that is what people do.... kill dangeous animals.  Yet you seem to make out like that is a bad thing.... the tone of this statement makes it sound almost as if you view it as "murder"?  Is that the case?  Either way I can appreciate that the question might be better asked (and answered) on the "should they all be saved" thread....

It's TO funny that your crowd uses the term punishment in place of correction, but them gets bent because I use the actual word of what's being done to dogs, and it's not...putting them to sleep.

Hey...you want to call tell a dog no...punishment that's your right. However it's something that can be debated. What can't be debated is...Dogs are killed...not put to sleep. Sleep is something one normally wakes up from.

Do I sense aggression brewing here? [8|] ...but, Anne, didn't you kind of figure that this would happen sooner or later?

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul to take.

Amen.

ORIGINAL: diane303

Do I sense aggression brewing here? [8|] ...but, Anne, didn't you kind of figure that this would happen sooner or later?

Well, I had hoped not.  I had too much faith, apparently. [sm=crazy.gif] 
It seems we have lost the ability to discuss controversial subjects without getting personal.   

A-dog, the last part of your post I can agree with.... PTS is indeed a euphimism, I did not dispute that.  I was suggesting that perhaps "correcting" was also a euphimism for the correct term and that you were guilty of the thing you accused me of.  In any case that's OT and I'm saying no more on it. 
 
As to the first part of your post:  ALL animals possess the capacity for aggression and ALL animals have a limit beyond which that aggression will manifest itself.  "Rehabbing" can certainly improve the situation and definately help it to be managed so that the risk that the aggression will manifest in future is greatly minimised.  But you cannot make it go away completely.  If you choose to believe that is my opinion rather than fact, that's your prerogative, we will just have to agree to disagree.  I'd ask though - what would happen if, for example, after Cesar Millan had successfully helped someone rehab a seriously aggressive dog, what would happen if they were to relapse back to their old ways - humanising the dog, failing to give it structure and adequate exercise etc etc etc?  Do you not think that the dog's behaviour would also relapse?  Don't answer that - I think its going OT and needs its own thread.
 
Again with reference to the first part of your post - was that degree of sarcasm and sneering dismissiveness really necessary?  If you don't want to discuss civilly, please don't discuss at all.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: diane303

Do I sense aggression brewing here? [8|] ...but, Anne, didn't you kind of figure that this would happen sooner or later?

Well, I had hoped not.  I had too much faith, apparently. [sm=crazy.gif] 
It seems we have lost the ability to discuss controversial subjects without getting personal.   

 
Wow we had that ability once?  When?  Did I miss it?  Was it before I rejoined the board?!!

Aggression cannot be "cured". That is indeed a fact. Any trainer who suggested otherwise would be one I would run a mile from, or ten miles.

What type of aggression you are talking about? All types?

There are several types of aggression, so let me think about that before answering.... I'll post tomorrow (if I'm not preoccupied.... see my sig!)

We'd all agree that biologically, the significance of aggressive behavior is in self-preservation of an organism. Depending on the books we may read, we might distinguish predatory aggression, play aggression, sexual, defensive, hierarchical, learned/instrumental, etc, etc. These behaviors are all genetically related to the satisfaction of dogs' needs. So, from that point it's impossible to "cure" it as it's not a disease. I mean, as in make it disappear. It's all about the threshold. Of course, there are physiological reason for aggression - brain damage due to inbreeding, etc., those cases have to be 'managed'. But, whether or not you can "cure" it depends on recognizing the motif and going from there.

I wish I was as eloquent as you.  Yes, I would agree with you there.  Particularly the bit about threshold. 

We'd all agree that biologically, the significance of aggressive behavior is in self-preservation of an organism. Depending on the books we may read, we might distinguish predatory aggression, play aggression, sexual, defensive, hierarchical, learned/instrumental, etc, etc. These behaviors are all genetically related to the satisfaction of dogs' needs. So, from that point it's impossible to "cure" it as it's not a disease. I mean, as in make it disappear. It's all about the threshold. Of course, there are physiological reason for aggression - brain damage due to inbreeding, etc., those cases have to be 'managed'. But, whether or not you can "cure" it depends on recognizing the motif and going from there.

 
That was well said!  Absolutely RIGHT!

ORIGINAL: TinaK

We'd all agree that biologically, the significance of aggressive behavior is in self-preservation of an organism. Depending on the books we may read, we might distinguish predatory aggression, play aggression, sexual, defensive, hierarchical, learned/instrumental, etc, etc. These behaviors are all genetically related to the satisfaction of dogs' needs. So, from that point it's impossible to "cure" it as it's not a disease. I mean, as in make it disappear. It's all about the threshold. Of course, there are physiological reason for aggression - brain damage due to inbreeding, etc., those cases have to be 'managed'. But, whether or not you can "cure" it depends on recognizing the motif and going from there.

Weather I 100% agree or not...nicely said.

Yes, but the same circumstances that caused the behavior in the first place has to exist in the dog's environment for the aggression to come back. 
 
With my latest foster, Essie a Great Dane mix, she came to me at 68lbs of skin and bones.  The only need on her mind was sustenance, food and water.  Her thinking and every movement was to fulfill this need.  To fill that need she relied on her senses and appendages to seek out and get/take food.  She also used a submissive posture to humans.  In other words she was very friendly to people.  Since the kitchen area was where the food was, she would not allow any of the other dogs to enter.  Since I was source who gave her food, she would not allow any of the other dogs near me.
 
I gave Essie a lot of freedom and little structure so she can find own her place in my home.  My pack also stayed clear of her and went about their own business.   I was interested to see as the dog basic need of sustenance diminished what other needs would she work on next.  The next activity was socializing with the other dogs.  The other dogs would be playing and she would run up to them and then come running back to me.  She then started exploring the toys in the yard.  Each day she increased her interaction with the other dogs and playing with toys by herself.  Today it is easily seen that she is balancing her needs for socializing, exercising, and leadership (her interaction with me).  Once I saw her biological needs were met and in her mind a non issue for the future, it is hard for me to see what needs are most important to her.  I suspect they often change in priority.  Her needs and fullfilling her needs are getting more complex just as her relationship with other pack members.  There is no more aggression in this dog.  The behavior has disappeared.  I do know that if she was put in survival mode again for food it would resurface.  There was no heavy hand used here, just supplying the right environment for the dog to work things out.