Macho Trainers

My opinion is that there are "traditional" trainers who have "done thhings the same way for 20 yrs" and see no point changing their methods or philosophy because, hey, it's always worked fine and they have achieved success.  They may not have the most modern or even tghe most gentle technique in the book - but it they are still compassionate and have a good deal of understanding of dogs (and people) and their behaviour. 
 
Then there are also trainers who use the same methods and who may/may not get results but are sadly lacking in compassion and understanding of dogs and/or people.
 
Having said that, you get trainers in any of the "disciplines" who have a poor attitude and/or or poor understanding of behaviour
 
Your post is transparent as my living room window.  I can all see who it is written about and I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. 

If this post was a bit less biased, and kinda "I dare you to say something else"...
I might answer!

hey, it's always worked fine

 
really? how many horror stories have you heard about dogs who were "rehabbed" by "macho trainers" and the dogs became much more aggressive afterwards? I've heard scores of them. I tried these methods myself once, and the dog got more aggressive, not less aggressive.

In my life, I think I have trained 4 dogs, all with the help of a professional trainer.  The first was probably in the early 1970's and the fourth is still an on-going process.  []  All of these trainers used basically the same method, that being to compel the dog to follow commands.  Only my current trainer would *I* describe as "macho."  Clearly I don't have anywhere close to your experience and expertise.  I will say, the training methods I used worked on 3 of the 4 dogs.  The 4th dog, I think, was just screwed up.
 
When it comes to aggressive dogs, I will just say, I wouldn't have one.  Even if you, as much respect as I have for you, could "rehabilitate" him, I would always be afraid something or someone would set him off.  Personally, I am not willing to take the risk.  There are too many nice dogs wasting away in shelters.

When it comes to aggressive dogs, I will just say, I wouldn't have one.

 
dogs don't come in two flavors, the aggressive and the non-aggressive. All dogs have the potential for aggression, all dogs have "triggers" that may set off aggressive behavior. Aggressive behavior is best prevented by careful breeding, socialization, and training. The dog I re-habbed behaved aggressively because of the brutal "dominant at all costs" methods used to "train" the poor little pup, and due to her breeding instead of shutting down she decided to "get them before they get me".
I admit, I will never try to rehab a dog that messed up again. It was a nightmare and she was never fully "safe". 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
All dogs have the potential for aggression,

 
Fair enough.  Just as all people have the potential to murder and all men have the potential to be rapists.  It is the BEHAVIOR I object to, not the potential.  When people with the potential to murder and rape actually do it, we put them in jail.  When dogs with the potential to be aggressive actually are, we should adjust their attitude with a 158g hollow point to the brain stem.
 

all dogs have "triggers" that may set off aggressive behavior.

 
I agree.  Odie, for example, is the biggest wuss you ever saw.  If you walk into the house and he doesn't know you, he will raise hell and make you think he is going to tear you up.  I believe that, in this case, if you were to stomp your foot at him, he would run the other way, peeing a streak as he went.  However, if you put him in a position where he couldn't run away, I believe he would bite.  Although Odie has never bitten, I do agree that he has the potential to do so and not just because he has teeth, but because he is such a scaredy dog.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

hey, it's always worked fine

really? how many horror stories have you heard about dogs who were "rehabbed" by "macho trainers" and the dogs became much more aggressive afterwards? I've heard scores of them. I tried these methods myself once, and the dog got more aggressive, not less aggressive.

 
I have also heard many such stories.  But does that mean the entire training philosophy is wrong, or just that it was not right for those circumstances, or that those particular trainers did not have the skill or knowledge necessary?
 
I'm not disagreeing with you - I also prefer "modern" trainers who use gentle and positive methods and suspect that the more macho sort do more harm than good - but I am trying to be open minded.

Why must it always come back to "Us" and "Them" ?
 
Do I dare ask how many people on this forum have had the real experience with a truely aggressive dog?
 
Fear bitters and reactive dogs really shouldn't be classified as an aggressive dog... they are driven by something different the the aggressive dog..which has no place in society. Honorable, conscious breeders culled dogs. In this day we must save them all...not every dog deserves saving. They all deserve evaluation and they also deserve to be PTS if they are not suitable to live in society...my breed included
 
Yeah, here it comes again, not everydog is going to work on a specific "type/method" and a good trainer/behaviorist, a REALLY good one will change their methods to modify FOR THE DOG they are working with to help modify/correct the behavior when training the owner and dog how to live with said dog

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

If this post was a bit less biased, and kinda "I dare you to say something else"...
I might answer!

Actually, it was purposely NOT about any person, living or dead.   But, if that's what you all wish to think, probably best to just close it.  Too bad - I actually thought that mudpuppy and Billy were contributing to a solid discussion of this topic. 

Do I dare ask how many people on this forum have had the real experience with a truely aggressive dog?

 I would raise my hand, Jaime, but no one would believe me. [] 

Fair enough. Just as all people have the potential to murder and all men have the potential to be rapists. It is the BEHAVIOR I object to, not the potential. When people with the potential to murder and rape actually do it, we put them in jail. When dogs with the potential to be aggressive actually are, we should adjust their attitude with a 158g hollow point to the brain stem.

Billy, does that mean you think no dog that aggresses is salvageable?  What's your definition of the transgression that gets a dog blown into next week?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
I would raise my hand, Jaime, but no one would believe me. [] 

 
I would believe you and I believe you might very well be able to fix a dog that was truly aggressive.  I just would never trust him and I could never own a dog I can't trust.
 
To Jaime's point, when I was talking about the "attitude adjustment" earlier in this thread, I DID NOT mean to include reactive dogs in that.  I think reactive dogs, for the most part, can be managed.  I have a reactive dog and I have managed him to the point that he has never bitten.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Billy, does that mean you think no dog that aggresses is salvageable? 

 
I don't have the knowledge to say that.  You do.  What I am saying is I wouldn't trust an aggressive dog and so I wouldn't have one.  If I had a dog that demonstrated unacceptably aggressive behavior I, as you said, would "cull" the dog.
 

What's your definition of the transgression that gets a dog blown into next week?

 
I would like to say simply, inappropriate aggression.  However, just because aggression is inappropriate TO ME does not mean that aggression was inappropriate TO THE DOG.  Not wanting to sidestep your question, but being very ignorant on the subject, I would shoot a dog who demonstrated aggression that was inappropriate to me.

Do I dare ask how many people on this forum have had the real experience with a truely aggressive dog?

Okay. My own experience was very similar to Mudpuppy's. The traditional methods I brought to the table escalated my dog's aggression quickly. I had some truly amazing partial successes with positive reinforcement methods. The dog, however, was not safe and would not become safe, so in the end, nothing truly "worked."

Onto the meat of this thread. Anne, respectfully I have to agree with Jamie that any kind of us/them post is not very helpful.

And I would like to throw out there, as someone who has worked with a truly aggressive dog, that this Oh, But Who Could Save The Aggressive Dog That Would Otherwise Be Put Down argument is a total red herring. My dog would have kicked Cesar Millan's a$$, and I say that as someone who used very similar strategies (flooding, choke chain, corrections) with a similar confidence level, if not the same photogenic finesse or good editing. And Jean Donaldson would have gotten as far as I did and then done some real thinking about whether or not it's rational or moral to keep a dog that could so easily kill a child.

These kinds of truly aggressive dogs are extremely rare, and so it's really safe to swagger about saving them, and I think that's a cheap shot. I think that, in general, clicker trainers do better with garden variety aggression than traditional trainers do. I think I did the right thing by investing seriously in positive reinforcement with my dog. And I will say that it was helpful to work with a trainer and behaviorist who were realistic about what I could expect from my dog.

Anne, I see why you started this thread, because I personally cringe when I hear about "Red Zone" dogs being "rehabilitated" using methods that made my dog completely freak out and get much worse, very quickly. It makes me cringe because the people who think these strategies are working are probably just breaking very frightened dogs, and that makes me sad.

But based on my limited experience, I can say that anyone who is faced with a really aggressive dog is going to figure out that flooding/prong/corrections is a bad strategy all by themselves, unless they get all involved with their own ego.

The best way to get everyone's ego inflamed (a method that closes ears and eyes) is to polarize this into "macho" v. clicker, or CM v Donaldson, or whatever v. whatever. I would hate to create a world in which someone with a truly aggressive dog didn't listen to clicker trainers because clicker trainers were too busy flinging mud at traditional trainers... even if they technically deserve it.

Had an SRS dog in my home.
 
Probe1957, your post caught my attention because it included murderers and aggressive dogs.  Where I work, across the hall are the offices of Ceasefire, one man#%92s theory to stop shooting and killings by creating outreach programs.  Twice a month a large group of Interceptor Counselors come to the office for a meeting.  To be an Interceptor you have had to fire a gun and kill someone, mostly in gang related activities.  During lunch in the common area we have the most fascinating conversation about their “stories”, jail, gangs, the streets, and believe it or not DOGS.  I probe them and they probe me about dogs.  Anyway, by your post, what was brought to mind was that these individuals committed bad acts and now they are rehabbed and productive citizens.  Do they have a potential for repeating their crime.  IMO, yes and that means they don#%92t get my full forgiveness and trust.  For me its the same for an aggressive dog.  The rehab dog is welcome in my home but I will take precautious.  In my past I did live with a little crazy dog for 15 years.  We just coexisted.