Mutilating Paws - Out of Options - What do we do?

I think if it were my dog, I would have requested a full CBC, urinalysis and examination up front.  I agree with you that it is always helpful to have a baseline on any animal, and one good reason for getting it with the first visit is that if your vet then sends you off to a specialist, and the specialist wants those tests, it's cheaper if you already had them done than to pay the rates the specialists charge!
I think I disagree on doing the holistic route in this case, only because skin disorders are so hard to diagnose.  But, after the dx is made by a dermatologist, my inclination for future care for a dog with issues is to have a holistic vet for consultation regarding general wellness.  It's easier to postpone that than to postpone knowing what is causing the skin issues, though. 
There is a book by Lowell Ackerman, DVM, called "Skin and Coat Care for Your Dog".  It is inexpensive, and might help shed some light on what's going on if a dog is displaying skin related symptoms.  There's a good description of food allergy and elimination diets, too.
Because many mfrs. are putting lamb in their diets, it's harder to find a protein source that the dog has never had before to use as part of an elimination diet.  Some suggestions might be buffalo, venison, pheasant, rabbit, etc.  The author also makes the excellent point that food allergies are often triggered by foods the pet has been eating for a long time that they develop a sensitivity to.

While I don't have as much experience as some of the other posters here-with reference to veterinary care, I do know that Vet Specialists often rotate between different areas, and some will even do phone consultations. 
 
As far as money goes, I have only one dog right now, but there's another on the way.  My dogs get the benefit of my time, my money, and whatever else they need to be happy, healthy and well socialized members of my community.  I understand, as do most on this board, about being strapped financially because of dog bills not to mention incidental expenses.  But I'd rather come home to happy wagging tails and big ol' pharaoh hound smiles than to an empty home.
 
A true elimination diet will probably help your dog out, along with holistic veterinary care.  I like holistic medicine because it treats and seeks to find the cause of the problem, not just the symptoms.

This is the last thing,( I promise![8|]), with fingers crossed behind my back!), that I will say here.  If the dog has something integrally wrong with body systems For example kidney d., feeding him proteins and salts will literally kill it.  The body becomes weak and unable to synthesize due to the failing kidneys, salts and impurities collect...guess where?  In the tissues organs and skin.  Itchyness tiredness slowing down of the urinary processing of the kidneys result in a painfully long end.  The dog becomes progressively confused and feels sick and weak all of the time.  In human terms they call this stage the -limbo man-, due to the fact he is neither real healthy or dying yet, but eventually death ensues. 
 
However if you get the bloodwork you can know that he either has that in which case you do SC fluids to help clear kidneys and flush out body, and use prescription diet to lighten the workload and increase pets feeling good again, if only for a little while.....If pet doesn't have kidney d.  Thank God and look at what else to rule out...If all is happy, then you think what allergens you have....lalala and you can solve and heal
[8|]

"... if a few vet visits and a few hundred dollars are too exhausting for you, perhaps you should stick to kids, not dogs."

I'm sorry but although your last sentence makes for a good "sound bite" it is a bit misleading to the actual circumstances regarding DogLover and in my opinion unfair. She has been trying to solve this problem for over 2 years, which is a more than simply "a few vet visits". The dog has been on several meds and had various scrapings, etc. done. She has gone to another vet, had a steroid injection, put her dog on antibiotics and antihistamines and bought special shampoo. So I'm sure over the last 2 years it is more than "a few hundred dollars". Your statement makes it sound that she is just being cheap and lazy when it comes to her dog and that she doesn't deserve to even own a dog.

So after 2 years of exhausting attempts to alleviate her dogs suffering and a fair amount of money she is no closer to an answer. If DogLover is as cheap and uncaring as you might think she would have pulled the plug long ago.

I probably should stop here, but WTH in for a penny in for a pound.

"I would certainly apply for assistance if it meant getting one of them a visit to a dermatologists..."

I hope you don't mean public assistance. There are many unfortunate people in your counrty who depend on tax dollars to beable to medically treat their children. I would not be happy to see my tax dollars spent to pay for someones dermatologist for their dog.

if the dog isn't responding AT ALL to antihistamines and steroid injections, and is already eating one of those completely  non-allergen commercial diets, I'd be inclined to think his problem isn't an allergy? wouldn't you? I've heard from many folks that allergy testing is a complete waste of money, being highly inaccurate.
 
Some dogs do engage in self-mutilating behavior as a mental illness. [linkhttp://www.dermapet.com/articles/art-18.html]http://www.dermapet.com/articles/art-18.html[/link]
 
note the first they suggest is a complete bloodwork/urinalysis. You might want to suggest that. It's not expensive to do.
 

The steroid shot Snowball received yesterday seemed to bring some temporary relief.  He was able to chew on his bone for about 10 minutes (something he had not done in months).  But then he found his paws again, and I had to put the e-collar back on.  Today I have had the e-collar off for a longer period of time; however, just as I was typing this, I heard a yelp.  Snowball was chewing on his paw, so I had to put the collar back on.  He is still on the antibiotic and antihistamine.  I am wiping his paws when he comes in from outdoors, and I'm putting tea on his paws as someone recommended.  I changed his plastic food and water bowls to ceramic and steel per the vet's recommendation.
 
I took Snowball off the Prozac.  Now he is using the bathroom on a regular basis again, so I'm relieved.
 
Regarding the blood work, I thought the vet was going to do that yesterday.  Then he told me he would do the blood work if the current treatment does not help.  To be honest, I'm not sure I trust this vet.  I'm the one who had to suggest that Snowball not be on Prozac and the other medication at the same time so that we can see what he responds to. 
 
We are still waiting for the fungal culture results. 

Ok, I'm only going to say this once.  We are not poor, and we do not require any government assistance to take care of our needs or our dog's needs.  Let's put that notion to rest.
 
We could have a million dollars in the bank, and we would still have to draw a line at some point as to how much money we are willing to spend in our attempt to find the problem.  We could chase doctors all over the country - or the world - trying to find out what's wrong and how to treat the problem.  Our situation is NOT one of financial destitution but one of getting our priorities in order.  Since we have had our dog, we have already spent thousands and thousands of dollars on his care.  At the first sign of a problem, we could have given the dog up or put him to sleep.  But we haven't given up yet.
 
If we have done all that we and our vet(s) believe is reasonable and our dog is still suffering and can no longer live the life of a dog, we will have to make a difficult decision that is OURS to make.
 
 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

if the dog isn't responding AT ALL to antihistamines and steroid injections, and is already eating one of those completely  non-allergen commercial diets, I'd be inclined to think his problem isn't an allergy? wouldn't you? I've heard from many folks that allergy testing is a complete waste of money, being highly inaccurate.

Some dogs do engage in self-mutilating behavior as a mental illness. [linkhttp://www.dermapet.com/articles/art-18.html]http://www.dermapet.com/articles/art-18.html[/link]

note the first they suggest is a complete bloodwork/urinalysis. You might want to suggest that. It's not expensive to do.

 
This is why our original vet prescribed Prozac.  She is of the mind that this is a behavior issue.  If the allergy route doesn't work, we may put Snowball back on the Prozac and see what happens.  It does take a couple of weeks to determine if it's going to work.  But I want to try one thing at a time so we know what is and is not working.

Mudpuppy said...

"note the first they suggest is a complete bloodwork/urinalysis. You might want to suggest that. It's not expensive to do. "

Dog_Lover said...

"Since we have had our dog, we have already spent thousands and thousands of dollars on his care.  At the first sign of a problem, we could have given the dog up or put him to sleep.  But we haven't given up yet. "
 
Glad to hear you aren't giving up esp since you don't know what is wrong with the pup yet!

I guess your vet is waiting on you to give the orders.  You may sound like you know what to do after reading everything on this site, LOL!!!  [8|]

Regarding bloodwork and urinalysis...
It really is important and it is cost effective as you need to have a baseline in any case.  But I am thinking that the only way to know if your dog truly has something more severe than a "skin condition" is to check this out.  And the Urinalysis as well.  You can fudge around with all of the remedies in the world and you may be truly wasting money playing this gambling game.

Best wishes, but more importantly..better choices~ 
 

Dog_Lover--
 
I'm so sorry! I know I wrote that last night but I really am. What an ordeal for you--the vets, the e-collar, the tea, the this and the that.
 
I'm sure you're exhausted. And it sounds like, too, that you're at the mercy of a few vets in your area. I lived in a small town and that was the deal there, too, except I loved Dr Bosted (yes, I'll type her name here, she is wonderful). She did a great job; however, I was there for awhile before she arrived and I was like you, at the mercy of their decisions.
 
People have ranted here over that, too, so you're not alone.
 
I'm offering no judgment, just support, and best wishes.
 
In Spiritdogs's defense, and to all the readers here--just a clarification: there are ways you can get some money to help you care for a pet when you don't have much. That is what she meant by her comments. Not public assistance or welfare--but there are people who donate for those who have ill pets but little money. After seeing what some of the wonderful surgeons out there have been able to do, I gladly toss a bit of money to animal charity whenever I have some to toss.
 
And, for the money thing--I get it, too. I have two disabled dogs--they both need their hip(s) replaced in order to live more comfortably and out of pain. And I'm single and supporting myself. After tossing and turning I finally realized that I'm lucky enough to own a house that has equity in it and I'm doing a HELOC so that I can get one hip replaced on Ellie and then one on Murphy. That is, if his behaviors become more predictable and yet I know he'd act better because he'd feel better if he had a good hip--catch22 there. I'm grateful I have this option.
 
Anyway, I don't mean to be judgmental at all--just sharing. I know of other people who have chosen to put their dog to sleep because of health issues, and I understand that, too.
 
Let us know how he's doing tomorrow.

I haven't read every post, but something came to mind and I thought I'd throw it out there.  We had a lab mix, who began chewing on one of her front legs, and as far as we knew, there was no scrape or anything to begin the chewing.  She continued chewing it until she died.  She lived in an ecollar for quite awhile.  We'd bandage it up and keep it clean and dry - it would heal, we'd take the ecollar off and she'd be at it again.  It was kind of a nightmare.  We took her from vet to vet, seeking answers.  And we finally got one - she had an ultrasound done of her entire body (and no, that wasn't cheap), and she had cancer - tumors in her lungs caused the leg to swell and it probably hurt her, so she went after it.  Anyway, we ended up having to euthanise her. 
 
That is not to say that your dog has cancer, and of course your dog is chewing her paws and not a leg.  However, seek everything out!  Ask all sorts of questions!  Mention this, see what the vet says.  Be persistent - you will find an answer.

Dog Lover,

I haven't read this post in it's entirely I actually read the beginning and the very end so if I say anything that has been suggested or you have tried I am sorry to repeat.

I can share this story.  Two friends, different friends, 3 different dogs both had dog's issues that their Vets could not diagnose to the point of a cure.  They spent tons of cash as well, and were doing there best to keep the symthoms under control.  Both dogs were on a daily regimen of drugs like; Prozac, Phenobarbital, allergy medication like allegra and some kind of daily injections had to endure.

The first dog had blisters on her nose and occasional seizures, some skin issues with dry and dull skin – itchier in the winter.  The Vet told my friend that he believed it was some kind of auto-immune problem and thought it would get progressively get worse.   After doing everything she was told from prescription foods to the daily medicine routine she decided to put her on a raw diet.  She took this route because she had changed her food so many times and tried everything from organic to whole meats, to no wheat's and nothing really helped.  Sometimes she would think that the new foods were making a difference just to find out she wasn't.   After a short couple of weeks her blisters on her nose began to heal, she was acting better in spirits as well.  Now I don't remember the timeframes that occurred but at some point she stopped the daily Phenobarbital and the seizure stopped.  It's about 6 years later now and her dog has had no reoccurring symptoms.

The second and third dogs are brothers and live with the same family.  The first dog in this family had a horrible dry skin problem where he would scratch himself bald in several spots.  My girl friend use to say how it drove her crazy to listen to his feet continue to hit the floor as he scratched relentlessly – and worse yet she couldn't help him.  They ran tests on this dog and determined he was allergic to grass and the outdoors in general, so on with the medication regimen for this dog as well, I think this dog got the shots too.  His problem was the worst in the summer and was not too much of an issue in the winter.  There next dog began having seizures, not often, but seizures none the less.   The Vet believed that (after many test of course) it was a brain thing and they put him on Phenobarbital in low doses.  Long story short, my friend had to find new homes for these two dogs because her 4 year old developed server asthma due to high allergies to the dogs and two cats.  She was fortune because one of her friend and there family took both the dogs (both Cats got to go together to a good home too).  The first month in this new home Bear had 4 seizures.  They decided to change food and up-graded food because they knew the importance of good food and the Kibbles and bit they were being fed was garbage.  They didn't go raw but they are buying a good quality food with less grain and real meat.  Well both dogs have improved a great deal, the seizures on the dog are few now with no daily drugs and although the other dog still has allergies his coat is much healthier and itching is non existent in the winter and with the course of meds he is doing much better in the summer.

I am not suggesting you don't feed a good food and maybe you already tried a raw diet and it didn't work – like I said I didn't read all the responses.  However, if you haven't maybe just jump right to raw feeding, skip all the trials and money you may have to go through trying to eliminate an allergies through different brands.  If you go to raw, and his issues don't get better then I believe food allergies can be eliminated for sure.  I don't feed raw to my dog so please don't think this is commercial for raw – I just know it worked and I have seen where food makes a difference – especially in us humans.

I do know that you don't have to cook it or catch it. )LOL.  They make sleeves of raw food that you can purchase by the pound and freeze.  Just thaw some every morning and throw it in a disk – fish head and all! 

Good luck and you are correct - Quality of life for your dog is just as important as good health.  You do have to draw the line somewhere I agree and commend you on your strength to trying everything; I know I would be devastated having to come to a crossroad.  But I encourage you to try the raw food diet I believe that more often than not, many of our illnesses (both human and canine) have some link to our diet and nutrition.

Best of luck and I do hope some good luck will rain down on your dog and your situation.

Lovemyswissy:  Snowball has been eating the ZD Ultra food for over a year, and it has made no difference.  We often wonder why we even continue to purchase the food, so now may be a good time to try something else.  According to the makers of ZD Ultra, the food is made in a "special" way called hydrolyzation.  Supposedly this process breaks the protein down into small pieces which are too small to cause an allergic reaction.  How true this is I don't know.  I've never seen the raw diet "sleeves" at Pet Smart, but, then again, I have not truly looked.  I will look into that plus other food options others here have mentioned.  Thanks....

Snowball is doing better today.  He has not had to wear the e-collar at all.  He has on occasion licked his paws, but he has not torn into them like he was.  He is still on the antibiotic and antihystamine.  He is acting like his usual self.  I see a glimmer of hope!

Snowball is doing better today.  He has not had to wear the e-collar at all.  He has on occasion licked his paws, but he has not torn into them like he was.  He is still on the antibiotic and antihystamine.  He is acting like his usual self.  I see a glimmer of hope!

 
This makes me so happy! I really think the right options have just not been tried and that for the most part they will be simple solutions!
Do you have any pictures of snowball you could share with the group?? I am sure I am not the only one who would love to see them!
Shelly