Biting The Baby

Sorry but that suggestion is loaded with danger.  And teaching means managing the behavior so both dog and child (or child and dog if you prefer) can be safe.  You can teach a dog what not to do, but you also need to manage the environment so that dog can not practice the inappropriate behavior.  Offering a shock collar option with the directions included in this post has a very low probability of a good outcome for dog or kid.
REALLY bad advice on this one.

To gmca: What the heck is wrong with you? Sorry but this is not an aggressive dog, she is a smart and willing to learn puppy and she is in not hurting the baby, she is herding him, I don#%92t think that is reason enough to use a shock collar! I would NEVER do this to my pup, I mean I think this all depends on personality and I don#%92t think it should be used on a dog that is as sensitive as Lizzie. It would absolutely break her heart, I mean I tell her no and she is moping around for a while imagine if I use a shock collar!
 
Also, on the whole ‘children and puppies should never be aloud to interact#%92 how else would they learn to get along and respect eachother? My baby is almost a year old, and they are NEVER around eachother without total supervision or for very long periods of time. Whenever they are together I am there watching and correcting. My son has learned that you DO NOT pull the dogs ears or her fur, or anything along those lines. My baby knows that it makes mommy happy when he pets the puppy, so he is doing that more often and the pulling/hitting has diminished completely. And I never used a shock collar on him!

I think the problem is that gmca got the impression that the situation is a lot more serious than it is. The title is BITING the baby, so I can see where a person might get the wrong impression. But from what I've read, it isn't biting, but herding behavior with mouthing, not hard enough to break the skin or bruise. Definitely an issue to be worked on, but it isn't aggression.

I agree that the dog should be leashed (when around the baby), maybe with a gentle leader leader or halti, since they make it easier to guide the dog to appropriate behavior. It's also important to keep them separated when not completely supervised, but that's already being done.

The point is that this is a herding breed PUPPY, the nipping and herding behavior is totally normal, just needs to be managed.

I don't give a damn what the dog's intentions are. If it's teeth are touching the baby, that's wrong and needs to be stopped immediately. It doesn't want to hurt the baby, but what if it "mouths" the baby, and the baby jerks. The combo of very sharp puppy teeth and gentle baby skin is a horrible combo and you'll be having to do some serious explaining at the hospital when you're taking your little one to be stitched up.

But just tell them that you didn't want to hurt your dog's feelings by giving it a shock.

It's a THREE VOLT battery for crap's sake. And it works. Well. You're not electrocuting the dog. You're giving it an uncomfortable zap. FROM A THREE VOLT BATTERY. If a dog does something that makes it uncomfortable, it won't do it anymore. Dog's have common sense unlike a lot of people.

I think the best course of action is actually for the parent to be taken away. Herding or not, if you have an infant, keep your dog and your baby separate until your dog knows it's limits. And even then it's a wild animal. If a dog gets too excited and accidentially bumps your baby into the coffee table, once again, to the hospital. It takes nothing to harm a child.

Keep the dog away from the baby. This isn't a training time. No the dog won't intentionally hurt your child, but is it worth an accident?

You all amaze me. Un-freaking-believable.

Obviously we disagree.  This issue is the use of punishment to change behavior.  Punishment works very quickly, there are however unintended outcomes.  One possible outcome, any precurser behaviors that occur can be suppressed.  Then you have behavior that appears to come out of nowhere.  Another possible outcome with punishment.  It is only effective in the specific environment and conditions in which it was used in training.  Punishment is not really too good at generalization unless you talk about one trial learning.  That occurs when the aversive is so extreme the behavior is suppressed without additional exposure.
 
The inappropriate behavior can be replaced by behaviors using training.  Management can be used to keep both safe when needed.  No reason for anybody to have to leave the family setting permanently.
 
The greatest probability of desired behavior occurs using positive reinforcement (what happened immediately after the behavior  increases the chances the behavior will occur again.)  And it really isnt common sense, it is the ability to learn from the enviroment and interactions so that a set of behaviors will be established that meet the dogs needs.
 
One final comment in this post.  Using punishment rather than taking the time to train and manage, can be a issue of not wanting to take the time or expend the effort to teach a new behavior. 

Im sorry if this title has caused some misunderstanding, i am really bad with titles []
As som people have understood Lizzie is in now way hurting the baby, she is just exhibiting typical herding behavior, which while it does not hurt him it definately annoys him big time.
 
I really dont think I am a bad parent and the certain person who is saying so should keep those comments to themselves.
 
GMCA: do u have children? if so you would know that there isnt a worse insult than calling someone a bad parent.
 
But anyway, I am currently keeping Lizzie under strict supervision. She is on her leash 100% of the time she is near the baby and gets a little piece of hotdog whenever the baby gets near and she leaves him alne.
 
I was wondering though, how would I go about rewarding her After she 'herds' the baby. Do I give her a treat after I tell her 'no' and 'sit' or would that be rewarding the bad behavior? Thanks!

gmca- why so upset?

I didn't get the impression that you were endagering your child in any way - only that you were seeking advice in nipping an annoying and inappropirate behavior, on you pup's part, in the bud... 
 
I don't have kids yet, and don't have this particular issue - but I did ask my trainer this question about rewarding after the cessation of a bad behavior on command (ie - will the dog then do the behavior so that you will tell him/her to stop so that then he/she can get a treat) and he thought no, but reminded me to give a positive command after you say "no" or "ah ah" or whatever (like you said you tell Lizzie to sit) and that the reward is for obeying the positive command... and paying attention to you - so I think it is fine and she probably doesn't think she is being rewarded for the herding...

schleide, i didnt mean u! Everyone has been VERY helpful in everything, its just that i was a little upset by Gmca's comments,  because he/she is thinking my Lizzie is a bloodcurling murderer dog that is ripping my child to pieces whenever she gets near him. (Lizzie a murderer HAHAHA the only thing she'd ever murder is the bugs she chases after!)
 
I will put my 100% into positive reinforrcement but if that alone doesnt work out my second choice would be the prong which is much gentler than a choke chain or shock collar.

Teach the dog to "leave it"? Really? That means the dog will have to bite your child a few times. What if it gets riled up and puts one of those sharp puppy teeth into your child's eye? Or throat?

 
Talk about overreacting... It's a herding dog, not a maniacal killer, for God's sake.  I own an Aussie and a half Aussie - the first is a puppy, and the latter one is a registered therapy dog.  Yes, they do need limits.  Do they have a shut off switch?  You bet.  Are they smart enough to learn "leave it" and "get" that you don't herd kids?  Absolutely.  Stockdog people work Aussies on cattle, but they learn to distinguish - and they don't herd the horses!
My working style Aussie never herds the screaming, running children at play group.  Kills the crap out of the soccer ball and the broom, though.  Gotta have some fun...
 

Well I have three kids and four gsd's. I have found redirecting the herding instinct (prey drive) to something else. I never aloud the dogs around my kids when they were small, only time they were aloud is when the kids was either in their play pen or their walker. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't using a shock collar teach the dog that every time it goes near the baby (or any baby) something nasty happens to it?  And is it not possible, in that case, that the puppy would grow up resenting children?  To me that sounds MUCH more dangerous in the long run than using positive reinforcement to curb the behaviour now.  [sm=2cents.gif]
 
I may be wrong, but that's how I see it.  I would do everything possible before putting a shock collar on my dog.
 
Kate

Oh goodness.  Shades of Betsy!
 
Frankly, I think that kids and babies belong together, but only once BOTH learn the rules.  And it sounds like in this case both are a bit young to have learned any.  With a herder, in my experience, things are pretty much ok as long as the little one is stationary.  It's when they start crawling around that herding happens.  I had a little foster daughter who Thor growled at a couple times.  Not full on growls, but little warning noises.  I shared on the board that I USED the growl as a learning experience for the child and I got skewered six ways to Sunday by ONE individual.  The little girl was NOT in danger...we're talking about Thor who has a rock solid temperment, and they were NOT unsupervised, they were both literally under my feet.  I was told that not only should I have had the child removed from MY home, I should be arrested for child endangerment.  So gosh, Lizzie, I REALLY feel your pain.
 
This stage, the crawling baby and the herding pup isn't going to last forever, so while it does, just keep them apart while your baby is on the floor.  Teaching a rock solid leave it is important in any event and THIS is a screaming reason to do it NOW.  Honestly, the WORST aversive I'd suggest is a spritz with the water bottle if pup doesn't comply immediately.
 
You don't want to use a prong for training leave it.  A prong is a training tool, more suitable for leash manners, and shouldn't be left on all the time.  And, yep, you are right, unless you follow the steps that Mic outlined in training the pup to the shock collar, you are very likely to have a dog who thinks "gee, everytime I get near the kid, my neck hurts....the kid must be hurting my neck"
 
I want to thank you for starting this thread.  Since the move my Shadow has been out of control and it's THIS thread that made me realize that the little devil is HERDING me....doesn't solve the problem but at least I realize what the heck is going on now, which through the haze of moving madness I hadn't grasped.

  It's a THREE VOLT battery for crap's sake.

 
My 900,000 volt stungun runs on two 9 volt alkaline batteries. It will knock you unconscious in under 2 seconds, and cause a person to seize in under 4.  The volts of the battery have nothing to do with the power of the collar.  So, the fact that a shock collar runs on a 3 volt battery doesn't make a craps bit of difference. It can potentially produce up to 150,000 volts of correction.
 
But that isn't the real problem I have with your post.  You gave very drastic advice without getting any real detail or giving any legit explanation on how to go about using an electronic collar. If the owner went out and purchased a tri-tronics field collar, and used it with out instruction, she could damage the dog forever.  Have you ever been shocked with a tri-tronics collar on a level 5.  It will turn you inside out. 
 
Be responsible with your advice, and be respectful on this board. 

Teeth + Baby = you're insane. Period.

You people don't get it. THE DOG ISN'T GOING TO INTENTIONALLY HURT THE BABY!!! Did you mean to take a slice off of your fingertip when delicately slicing an onion? NO!!! You were being careful, yet the knife was so sharp, that you barely grazed your finger and all of a sudden there's blood everywhere. I'm talking about taking your child out of the situation that something could accidentally happen people!

And yeah, a shock collar can tingle and even give you a good zap, but you can use the lowest setting and you'll still have a great effect. And that's nothing more than a slight tingle letting the dog know more is on it's way if they don't stop.

You're giving dogs too much credit for being able to reason. Dogs don't resent anything. It's very black and white to them. If it hurts when I put my mouth on baby, I don't put my mouth on baby. If it doesn't hurt when I lay next to baby, I lay next to baby. If it hurts when I jump on the couch, I don't jump on the couch.

The dog doesn't take a step back and think "wait, did that baby just hurt me? I'll show him!!!!"

THEY DON'T REASON! It's what makes them Dogs. They like or they don't like! They don't know a collar's shocking them. They don't know you hold the remote. They know one thing.

ACTION = RESULT

The baby doesn't shock them. Their teeth on the baby does. And when something has common sense, a trait seemingly unfamiliar to a lot of people here, it won't do the thing that hurts them. But the dog won't go plot revenge, because they don't know what that is.

Just take the kid out of the situation. Period. I don't care how you train your dogs, but I'm apparently the only one that sees that this isn't a training time. This is the time to save your child from being hurt. You don't train your dog not to bite, mouth, herd, shoot, perform surgery, etc on your baby. YOU DON'T LET IT NEAR UNTIL THE CHILD IS OLDER AND WON'T BE HURT SO EASILY. Barely shaking a baby can kill them. Your dog accidentally slicing them with a sharp tooth can't hurt them? There is no room for error on this.

It's a matter of what's more important. Your baby's safety or your dog's feelings. Apparently the verdict is in and I'm just the insane one.

And I've got a lot of PM's from a lot of people saying that you're all crazy and that they don't even bother to post on this board because there's no point.

I'm beginning to think they're right. It's like arguing with a wall. (one that gets offended when you call it a wall.)

You're all crazy.

Dog's are great, but they're dogs. Your child is your baby. Learn the difference.