5 month old lab puppy with food aggression

    • Bronze

    5 month old lab puppy with food aggression

    Hello I have a 5 month old yellow lab puppy who has food and water aggression.  He eates three times a day and has his water bowl out all day.  We have had issues with the food agression from the beginning he growls and goes to bite only me and my three kids but not my husband.  The other day my 2 yr old got near him when he was just drinking water and he bit her.  He shows his teeth if we even get with in a 2 ft radius while he is eating or drinking.  This has me very worried.  We had him in training and the trainer said to feed him by hand well we did that for about 2 months and it didnt help, if we feed him by hand now he raises his teeth at us while he is eating out of our hands.  I have tried the growling and as our trainer said "flooring him" but nothing works.  I am hopeing you all have some magical tricks up your sleeves.  Ohh the dog eats like he has never been feed before and our vet says we are giving him too much but I go off the bag so I dont think we are.  I have also tried the putting treats in his bowl while he is eating and he justs growls and raises his teeth to me.  I really want to fix this because he goes and takes food off the fllor he does the same thing and he will take food out of my kids hands and do the same thing if they try o take it back.  Sorry this is so long but I am desperate.  Thanks
    • Gold Top Dog
    Just interested what you are feeding the dog.  The other thing is NEVER let the kids around this dog when it is drinking or eating, I mean NEVER.  Even if this problem is solved I would not trust it.  I don't know of any training that helps with this personally, I have always moved my puppy's food away with my foot until they accept that then I use my hands, and I always teach them young not to bite the hand that feeds you.  Good Luck, I am sure ppl that are a lot more experienced than I can help you.
     
    Julie
    • Gold Top Dog
    I have tried the growling and as our trainer said "flooring him" but nothing works.


    Please, PLEASE, PLEASE, put this out of your head and NEVER do it again!!!!! This dog needs a strict schedule and a routine, he does NOT need physical violence. Violence only creates more violence and alpha rolling a dog is one of the WORST peices of advice I've ever heard in my life.

    What you need is NILIF. NILIF means Nothing In Life Is Free. The dog has to work for each peice of kibble. He has to work for any petting. He has to work for the door to be opened. He has to work for his leash and his walks. This technique WORKS. It won't get your face ripped off in the process.

    Please find a new trainer, preferably with positive reinforcement experience.
    • Gold Top Dog
    BTW, if you don't want this dog to seriously bite one of your children, put them at the table, and him in another room while they eat. Don't allow them to EVER take anything away from him, or him to take things from them.
    • Bronze
    We do stay away from him because I am scared he will bite, but he does this when he takes their food away or he finds something on the floor that is not his food.  I have a constant watch on him when he is out and about but sometimes he is too quick and once he gets the food there is no going to get it back.  I dont want to have any aggression issues with any kind of food.  Whats funny is our vet said to bug him while he eats like pet him move the bowl around etc... but I dont dare I am scared of getting bit.  Our trainer said that he thinks he is more dominant than me becuase I am too soft spoken but I am the one that feeds him walks him and does his training with him.  He eats nutro large breed puppy food. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    He's not being "dominant". He's being an obnoxious puppy. Put a leash on him, or crate him while the kids eat.

    You need to be seriously training him. If you say sit, he HAS to sit. There IS no other option. He has to have rules and boundaries, or he will rule your home. He won't do it because he wants to (as domestic dogs are NOT cut out to be alphas) but because YOU aren't doing it.

    Biting kids is serious business. You've got to control this dog. 24/7 leash control, or crating, for the time being, is fine. It won't kill him to stay on a leash. It will keep him from being killed for his horrible behavior. You have to stop this, and stop it now. Your dog's future is in your hands.
    • Bronze
    ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

    I have tried the growling and as our trainer said "flooring him" but nothing works.


    Please, PLEASE, PLEASE, put this out of your head and NEVER do it again!!!!! This dog needs a strict schedule and a routine, he does NOT need physical violence. Violence only creates more violence and alpha rolling a dog is one of the WORST peices of advice I've ever heard in my life.

    What you need is NILIF. NILIF means Nothing In Life Is Free. The dog has to work for each peice of kibble. He has to work for any petting. He has to work for the door to be opened. He has to work for his leash and his walks. This technique WORKS. It won't get your face ripped off in the process.

    Please find a new trainer, preferably with positive reinforcement experience.


    I am not violent about it and angry that you would assume so.  I do have my animal on a very strict schedule as do my homeschooling children.  Ok so what do you suggest I do when he does happen to be fast and take the food (which is not their dinner, they do eat at the table and think that you are rude for aussuming they dont) its when they have little snacks, I am not going to fight with the dog to get it back and they say dont punish him with his crate, so what do you do? 
    • Bronze
    ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

    He's not being "dominant". He's being an obnoxious puppy. Put a leash on him, or crate him while the kids eat.

    You need to be seriously training him. If you say sit, he HAS to sit. There IS no other option. He has to have rules and boundaries, or he will rule your home. He won't do it because he wants to (as domestic dogs are NOT cut out to be alphas) but because YOU aren't doing it.

    Biting kids is serious business. You've got to control this dog. 24/7 leash control, or crating, for the time being, is fine. It won't kill him to stay on a leash. It will keep him from being killed for his horrible behavior. You have to stop this, and stop it now. Your dog's future is in your hands.


    ok I do the training classes and we our doing training time everyday, so I am serious about training him. I dont want him biting my kids either.  I am really sorry that I joined this forum I was asking for advise not for someone to come yelling at me telling me that I am doing a crappy job.  My dog sits when I tell him and stays and lays down I was just asking advise my mistake that for sure.  Now I feel like crap thanks for making my night.
    • Gold Top Dog

    I am not violent about it and angry that you would assume so. I do have my animal on a very strict schedule as do my homeschooling children. Ok so what do you suggest I do when he does happen to be fast and take the food (which is not their dinner, they do eat at the table and think that you are rude for aussuming they dont) its when they have little snacks, I am not going to fight with the dog to get it back and they say dont punish him with his crate, so what do you do?


    Alpha rolling IS violent. It doesn't matter who does it, or when, or how. In doggy speak, when you flip your dog over and hold him down, you are saying, "I'm about to kill you." You're TERRIFYING him. It's cruel, and it's WRONG.

    Crating the dog before you get out the kids' food isn't punishing him. It's removing him from a situation where he will potentially injure one of your children.

    I lived through a food aggressive puppy, and I have the scars to prove it. If I'd have had children, I may not have been able to work through Emma's issues. In fact, I KNOW I wouldn't have. Food aggression wasn't her only problem, but it was one on the list. If she'd bitten a child like she bit me, I would have had her euthanized. A biting dog is dangerous. You have to protect your dog, and your children. Removing him from the room isn't cruel. Rolling him IS. Euthanising him for a preventable bite IS.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ok I do the training classes and we our doing training time everyday, so I am serious about training him. I dont want him biting my kids either. I am really sorry that I joined this forum I was asking for advise not for someone to come yelling at me telling me that I am doing a crappy job. My dog sits when I tell him and stays and lays down I was just asking advise my mistake that for sure. Now I feel like crap thanks for making my night.


    I know that you are training him, but please.... don't think I'm a horrible person. I've BEEN there. I live with not one, but TWO food aggressive dogs. I've been through serious dog fights, and I've been badly bitten by my dogs. It's NOT fun to take a bite. It would be worse if it was one of your kids, who had scars from the dog.

    You need to be SERIOUSLY training him. His leash should never come off. He has not earned his freedom, yet. He should be attached to you, or in his crate. He should be working for every bit of food that he gets. He should be learning "drop it" in case he gets ahold of something harmful. How else will you get it out of his mouth? You can't stick your fingers in there.

    I wasn't yelling at you. If I were, IT WOULD LOOK LIKE THIS. I see a serious problem, and I'm concerned. I love my dogs more than I love most anything else, and I deal with a LOT because of it. They're incredibly well trained, and constantly suprivised, and I *still* can't trust them. It's *hard* to live with my dogs. If you get your puppy straightened out now, it should be easy sailing for the rest of his life.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Since hes still a puppy I would be doing everything I could now before he gets bigger.  I know your trying and it must be very hard to deal with I am very sympathetic to your situation and glad Ive never had to go through anything like that.  Maybe since he doesnt do this with your husband, always have him around while the dog eats and you walk by him while hes eating and if he growls then get your husband to say NO! and take the food away.  Then YOU make him sit and YOU put it back down for him, same thing, until maybe he wont growl anymore for fear of getting his food taken away.  Maybe once you can get two feet without this then praise him, and continue to try to get closer as he gets better with this until you can grab his bowl while hes eating.
     
    Im sorry if this is a bad sugegsiton, Im just trying to think of something here.  Welcome to the forum and please dont feel sorry that you joined!  You can get lots of good information here... sorry you first experience wasnt so good....
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Rosebudd--hello! I wanted to say first of all that I know Jennie_c_d and she wasn't being mean. It's the problem with email. It really is. You said you were desperate and some of the great people here pick up on that and write immediately to give some help. But, she's really one of the nicest "forumers" we have here (how's that for a new word?). 
     
    I might as well admit it right here and say that as a never-before puppy mom (until I got my puppy), training is hard for me. It really is. It's hard for me to do consistently, and it's difficult for me to see the results, and it's hard for me to attend classes. I'm not like a lot of the guardians here--they're harcore and I'm dragging my feet.
     
    I've had two instructors--and they've had pluses and minuses to me. My latest one sounds a bit like yours, and that's not all bad--after gaining more confidence myself, I am able to more easily decide which methods work best for my pets, but still, all I really want is a good dog. What, I ask myself, is so hard to understand about that?
     
    I finally figured out about a year into my "puppy journey" that training is for life. Crap, I remember thinking, but true. So true.
     
    So, I keep at it. I work and work and work at it. And recently I actually saw how far along my puppy had come when she was the Demo Dog for a new obedience class. I was so darn proud of her. 
     
    A few days ago she found a chicken bone that had fallen out of somebody's trash as we were out walking and she went for it and I said "LEAVE IT" and guess what she did? She flicked her ears back and she left it. I couldn't believe it. It was a miracle. She has learned a thing or two.
     
    And so have I. You'll get it right with your puppy. You will. You're trying and it will happen. I think he sees the kids as unimportant and he thinks it's A-OK to treat them crappy--just like he might a puppy sibling. (That's my opinion only, so I own that fully.) I think maybe he has a lot of food fear and he growsl and snaps at you to try and scare you off.
     
    His social skills among humans seem rather stunted and he's awkward still, but it's definitely serious and can become a horrible habit if he doesn't learn some better ones.
     
    I know Jennie worries because she's had that issue before, and as I've seen time and time again on Animal Cops--that is the number one behavorial reason dogs are put to sleep and not adopted.
     
    On a somewhat related note, I had a dog-aggressive dog who lived with me for 11 years (until she died, basically). She got worse the older she got and I can't begin to tell you--or anyone reading--how knotted my stomach got whenever I had to walk her (two or three times a day since she was high energy and needed it). I got good at managing it, but never at fixing it.   And I regret that now. She didn't need to spend her time trying to pick a fight and I didn't need to have knots. We just didn't need to live this way but I didn't know enough to look for help and to work on fixing it. So, I just tried to control and contain the situation.
     
    I have since adopted two dogs--the puppy and a 2-year old--and I've spent countless hours training them to not be dog-aggressive. That's how much that whole "knotty" experience influenced me.
     
    Good luck to you.
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog

    So, I keep at it. I work and work and work at it. And recently I actually saw how far along my puppy had come when she was the Demo Dog for a new obedience class. I was so darn proud of her.

    A few days ago she found a chicken bone that had fallen out of somebody's trash as we were out walking and she went for it and I said "LEAVE IT" and guess what she did? She flicked her ears back and she left it. I couldn't believe it. It was a miracle. She has learned a thing or two.


    Nancy, that's AWESOME!!!! Emma, too, likes to demo whenever we visit her obedience class. We don't go often, b/c there aren't advanced classes offered, but it's good to have an objective person point out where I'm messing up (I always manage to get pointed out at some point in class, LOL).
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks, Jennie. I once said, perhaps too harshly, that getting any training (even if it's the "alpha" thing) is better than none for so many owners. I live in a state where so many pets are considered property and so many are uncared for and so many owners are not watching them, minding them, and taking care of them. So, if the choice training vs. PTS, then I choose training--even if it's not the best training out there.
     
    I mean, you have to use your brain, obviously, and get into the right class and then, even in the right class, use your brain because you know your dog better than a trainer who only sees them a few times a week, BUT, you're right--having somebody else SEE what is happening is good feedback. Really. 
     
    I think too many people accept the life/situation they have and that's why things don't change. Look at me with my dog-aggressive dog! Look at a close friend of mine with very naughty boys (real kids whose naughtiness won't be understood by the world even if it's accepted at home).
     
    I decided when I adopted Ellie that I wasn't going to just accept that sort of thing--not good for me or her. And yes, having El be the Demo Dog and having her actually participate in a Rally event next Saturday (fngers crossed we'll do OK) is amazing. Who would have thought?
     
    But, honestly, knowing that there is trust between is best. My sister let her out once, on accident (left the door open) and I panicked because I grew up with "runners" and my dog-aggressive dog was a runner and I figured Ellie would be, too. But when she started to bolt down the street I yelled STOP like we'd practiced, and, wow of wows, she did. She stopped. And then I said "sit" and "stay" and she did. And I went up to her, grabbed her collar, and we walked home again.
     
    Amazing. Thanks for the kudos--and kudos to you, too. Training is not easy. Being consistent is not easy. Being observant is not easy. It's all hard work. I wish I had the prize dog, but I know that Prize Dogs are the result of a lifetime of work.
     
    (Sigh)
    • Gold Top Dog
    I have to agree with everything that Jennie has suggested.

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and do some guessing.  You're home full time with three kids, all of them probably under the age of 10, and you're homeschooling which is a LOT of work.  Hubby goes off to work and when he's home the pup is likely better behaved because puppy sees hubby as Alpha, but not you, and certainly not the children.

    At this age, you can cut the pup back to TWO feedings per day.  That eliminates one opportunity for problems.  From everything I know about labs, they are chow hounds and WILL act like they are starving all the time.  If your vet says to cut back the food, PLEASE do so.  The guidelines on the bag are just that...guidelines.  I'm guessing with 3 little kids you don't have a lot of time for seriously exercising this dog, so he's likely getting as much as a very active puppy but you're still within the guidelines.  PLEASE cut back his food in line with the vets suggestions.  I see more fat labs than any other breed and fat is soooo bad for them in so many health areas.  And to be honest with you, if I'm hand feeding a pup that raises a lip to me (and I think that's what you meant by raising his teeth), he'd be done eating.

    I frequently foster.  I started with 3 german shepherds and now have 6......3 of them are failed fosters.  One of the little boys has recently decided that he doesn't like having breakfast in his crate.  He'll eat some of it, but then he wants to sit beside me to finish the rest.  Now, normally, I'd just take his bowl up after 20 minutes and let him wait for his next meal, cuz I absolutely won't tolerate a picky eater.  But, I recognize in this boy that this is his bid for more of my time and attention.  He isn't being picky about WHAT he eats, but, rather where, and only in the mornings.  So typically, Theo will eat the last half of his breakfast from my hand with himself and two other dogs UNDER my desk. There are NO growls, no misbehaving, and this is with three shepherds at my knees.  I see it as a good opportunity for Theo to get some special time with me, and also as a good time to reinforce to the other boys that THIS is for Theo, and not get everyone elses nose stuck in my hand.  With this many dogs it's absolutely crucial that they respect that something is for someone else and I can sit surrounded by 6 german shepherds handing out treats and when I say a name that's the only dog who makes a move for the treat.  But, I can PROMISE you, if anyone raised a lip to me, breakfast would be OVER.

    Now, as to the why....I can only guess.  If this pup left his litter too soon he didn't learn dinner time manners, or even if he didn't have an excellent breeder who teaches manners, or if he came from a pet store (and most pet store pups do end up being absolute pigs because their breeding is not so good) or if he was a stray for a bit having to fight for every morsel.......when I'm fostering pups, they start off with a communal bowl, but as they get bigger and more dominant about food, I start to separate them for meal time so that everyone has a fair chance to eat without having to struggle for it.  If that didn't happen with YOUR pup, he likely learned that he has to fight for his food, and he sees the kids (lower and closer to the ground) as packmates who are gonna steal his food, and you, with your higher pitched female voice as a BIGGER puppy who he just can't please, but a threat to steal his food.

    Here is what I would do.  To start, this pup would eat NOTHING unless he is crated.  And I'd absolutely keep the children away from the room that his crate is in when he is eating.  He is doing some pretty serious resource guarding and it's gotta stop.  WHEN you have another adult around to keep the children totally out of the area of the house that he's in...and I don't mean they can be in the next room, but totally away from him,  start to give him his food outside of the crate.  Give him half his normal portion.  You want to walk by him, approaching from the side and not say a word, don't even look at him..  Just walk by.  After several trips by without a reaction, praise him for being a good boy a few trips by, but still don't look at him.  Next, toss something super yummy at his bowl...don't worry about hitting the bowl, just casually toss a piece of meat his way.  Work on this until you are able to walk right up to him and let him take the goodie out of your hand.  If he growls, you've gone too quickly, so just step back a bit and repeat the earlier steps.  Only after weeks and weeks of this and the behavior of not resource guarding against you, can you gradually add in the oldest child to do the same thing.  This is gonna be a SLOW process so you and the kids will have to be patient.  Slow and steady, and CONSISTENT is gonna win this race.

    When it's time for the kids to have a snack, your pup should go into his crate with his own treat.  See, to him, the bigger pups are getting all the GOOOD stuff, and it's a game.  Yeah, he wants the good stuff, but he can make the other pups squeal and CHASE him when he takes their treats.  So it's a game too, not all about getting the better treats, but he's clumsily trying to engage his bigger "littermates" to play.  It's FUN to play catch me if you can.  Eventually, you'll be able to leave him out, but only when you've installed a rock solid "leave it" and "drop it"  These are probably the two most important commands (aside from come) that you can teach your pup.

    The kids do need to be involved in training the pup so that he begins to see them as more than oversized litter mates.  On the rare occassion that I place a pup with a family with young children I'm very clear to the parents.  The kids, no matter how wonderful and well behaved, need every bit as much training as the pup.  It's normal for kids (who are lower to the ground and have higher pitched voices) to get excited and to encite the pup...it's normal for them to pull on a tail or an ear until they are TAUGHT that this is a REAL doggie and it hurts them when you do that.  Around the pup, the kids need to be taught not to react the way kids react...with jumping, yelling and those ear piercing shrieks.  That encites the pup.  So include your biggest, calmest child in a training session and let him/her give the treats.  But pup ONLY gets the treat if he takes it gently from an open hand.  Maybe have the child sit on a high kitchen stool so s/he is not as accesable to the pup.

    Exercise is absolutely vital to this pup.  Labs are very high energy and they need a chance to RUN and burn off some of that energy.  Enlist the kids for this one too.  If you don't have a fenced yard, install a 30-50 foot runner so pup has plenty of room to tire himself out.  Let the kids throw a tennis ball for the pup, and keep on throwing that darned thing, even if he won't bring it back right away, until his tongue is hitting the ground.  See if you can't find a running track or a football field that is totally fenced (be sure to take poop bags) and let him just run until he can't run anymore.

    In my minds eye, I'm envisioning a young mom with plenty on her plate WITHOUT an obnoxious pup, who is alone with all 4 much of the day while dad is off working.  Dad comes home, bigger physically, deeper voice and pup turns into an angel with him around and he thinks you're nuts for thinking the pup is any trouble at all.  I feel for you, honestly I do!

    Try to make you bigger...carry yourself with authority and try to convince yourself that YOU are the parent and that the pup WILL learn to bend to your will.  Be a benevolent leader, but by golly, be the leader.  And if he's rotten, there is nothing wrong with matter of factly taking him to his crate for a timeout.  Not a punishment, but a timeout.  If you yell and scream at him, he's gonna see it as punishment, but if you calmly take him to his crate and tell him he needs a time out, well, that's how he'll see it.  Try to keep your voice lower, deeper, less female in your interactions with this rotten child too.

    Alpha rolls are dangerous.  Forget about those.  And try to never tell him NO.....tell him what you WANT him to do instead.  Catch him doing something good and praise him for that so that MOST of your interactions with him can be positive and not "that mean old mom giving me heck again".  Remember that he doesn't KNOW what you want until you TEACH him what you want.  Right now you need the strength of Job and the patience of a Saint, but all your hard work will be worth it in time.

    And, for the record, I'm not a trainer nor a behavioralist.  Just an old broad with LOTS of doggie experience under my belt, and a charter member of the "been there,done that" club.