Ideas how to seperate littermates to teach independance

I really don't know what your asking.  I have littermates and basically it is no mistake.  I love them and they fit right into the family here.  No mistake either that they are two times the work, the cost the training.  It goes on forever.
 
They love each other and have had a couple spats, but I train them just like anything else.  We do not allow bad behavior.
 
We crate them separately as a rule unless we are travelling and I have no idea how long that will last.  If they tolerate it ok, and not grumpy then it is ok. (supposed to remove collars if together to avoid serious injury)
 
I think it is great that you are doing obediance training and separately.  I do not understand what the 'freaking out" sitch is.  I would not want them to be feeling abandoned but you do what you have to do. Why doesn't someone take the dog for a walk while you have the other one?  They look little, maybe a reliable neighborhood child would love to do that.
 
They look adorable in the pic.  Don't be feeling like it is a mistake.  I think it is double the love and fun as well as the work.

good for you for realizing before it's too late that it IS a mistake to try to raise two littermates together unless you work really hard to develop each pup's independence and people skills.
Why are you only taking one of the pups to class? take both, but to separate classes. I would think it's ok to continue crating together, but try taking each pup out alone on a separate "excursion" every single day, even if it's only to play with one in the backyard while the other is crated alone inside. Ignore any screaming and carrying on, just don't let the dog out of the crate until it is quiet and calm. The sooner they learn they CAN exist on their own the better for them.

Oh don't misunderstand me; I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world.  I'm glad I have them together, but after learning about some of the things that "can" go very wrong when raising same sex littermates, I would probably do things differently than I did - even if it were to have just crated them seperately and take them out of the house seperately from an early age.  I have no regrets about double expenses, double time consuming training or any of that stuff.  I love that part and they're awesome~! [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

The reason I am concerned is for their emotional health.  I want to find a way to "gradually" introduce them to being seperated without it stressing them out so much.  I never realized just how much they rely on eachother until I started taking Willie to class.  They are a pair, not individuals - because we raised them that way. 

Eventually, some day, there will be a need to seperate them.  I don't mean to be negative, but what if one has to go overnight to the vet, or as with humans, one will most certainly go to the bridge before the other.  I don't want them to be SO attached to each other that they can't cope with being apart.

By "freaking out", I am referring to the incessant barking and whining that one will do if he is crated without the other and the anxiety that you can see in the dog's behavior if one of them is "missing" from the house for more than 15 minutes.  It's kind of sweet, but I just don't think it's healthy for them to be that attached.

The walks are a little scary in my neighborhood.  I live on a busy road, with the neighborhood behind my house.  I don't have many children close to my house (The lots are all at least an acre apart, so we don't meet many neighbors).  The biggest concern I would have with a child walking my dog are the amount of dogs I see off leash/escapees, particulary the guy who lives next to me with his un-neutered, outdoor kennel Mastiffs that escape on a regular basis and torment the neighborhood.  Sometimes he lets them out while he's working around the yard, and the dogs just wander off at their will [:@].  One of them already rushed past my husband coming through our gate into our yard and charged toward one of our Tzus while making a low growling sound; I may be over-protective, but I just wouldn't feel comfortable with my dog's fate in a child's hands around there...[&:]

Ok, I hear you.  I used to worry about that too.  But basically, we just do what we have to do.  If I take one out, the other makes a fuss.  But we still do it.  It isn't as bad as it used to be.  The boy howls, the girl is good at screaming!  But it dies down after a time.  I still have my kids home so, they kind of take the edge off of it.  My daughter actually taped the activity while I was out, very amusing.
 
Glad you are enjoying your two.  Personally, I can not imagine it any different!

Thanks mudpuppy.  The Basic class is only offered once a week at 6pm; I can't take both dogs together for obvious reasons.  This is the second time I've been through this class; the first time was with my foster GSD/Hound mix, now I'm taking Willie through it, and I plan to start Sam in the same class in April when this one ends.  Willie has more nervousness than Sam and so I thought it best to start with him.

I have not decided if I will take Willie to the next level class or not.  He is just a nervous wreck in the class.  I was really hoping to get him into agility (for fun), but I don't think he's the guy for that[&:]He is making improvement though.  When we first started, his tail hung down the whole time and he would paw at my leg and try to run to the Exit every time we rounded the ring at that end!  Now, 5 weeks into it, his tail is on his back about 75% of the class.  When we first started, he wouldn't even take chicken breast or hot dog from me.  I think it's the noise and the hustle/bustle/barking, etc. that makes him nervous; possibly all the large dogs in one room too I guess. 

DH and I do not have children; it's a quiet home.  Willie does fine with up to maybe 6 guests, but if it gets to busy and loud, he hides under a chair as if he's going to get stepped on.  When I see him getting nervous at class, I take him through his tricks that he knows instead of picking him up like the rest of the small dog owners there[:@] 

He still hates it though; the Basic class is over in 2 weeks.  The Level Two class is on the same night at 8pm (the Basic Class is 6-7pm that I'm planning to bring Sam to - that leaves an hour in between each of their classes that I would probably have to crate them)

Should I push him through the next class or leave things as they are for now?

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

good for you for realizing before it's too late that it IS a mistake to try to raise two littermates together unless you work really hard to develop each pup's independence and people skills.
Why are you only taking one of the pups to class? take both, but to separate classes. I would think it's ok to continue crating together, but try taking each pup out alone on a separate "excursion" every single day, even if it's only to play with one in the backyard while the other is crated alone inside. Ignore any screaming and carrying on, just don't let the dog out of the crate until it is quiet and calm. The sooner they learn they CAN exist on their own the better for them.

 
Not my experience at all.  I have two littermates and their bitches on top of that.  One is deaf so there is that much more of dependency on the other's body language.  Plus they are giant dogs.  They have different personalities and they naturally do things separately, but they are together or if they choose they don't have to be together.
 
I have two foster males that sound very similar to your situation.  One has been with since August, the other since November.  They have bonded and want to be together all the time.  I had a hard time clicker training one while the other watched.  They do not like being separated in kennels but I still do it and put up with their whining.  It eventually stops.

so you're saying it's a bad idea to teach a puppy that he can go places and do things without his brother without having a nervous breakdown? 
 
No reputable breeder will even place two littermates in the same home because of the very high probability of the dogs not developing properly and not bonding properly to humans. Experienced, dedicated owners can prevent these things from happening, but most owners simply don't have the time to roperly train and socialize one puppy, and forget about two.
 
The worst case I've ever seen was two male labs raised together. By age six months they had completely lost interest in humans. They were all to each other. Untrainable, uninterested in people, uninterested in other dogs. Owner got fed up and turned them both over to a shelter.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
No reputable breeder will even place two littermates in the same home because of the very high probability of the dogs not developing properly and not bonding properly to humans. Experienced, dedicated owners can prevent these things from happening, but most owners simply don't have the time to roperly train and socialize one puppy, and forget about two.

The worst case I've ever seen was two male labs raised together. By age six months they had completely lost interest in humans. They were all to each other. Untrainable, uninterested in people, uninterested in other dogs. Owner got fed up and turned them both over to a shelter.

Well, from what I've read about some littermate households, I don't think my situation is as bad as it could have turned out.  In my own defense, I did research the breed and learned about positive training methods before we decided on our dogs.  I worked really hard at socializing and obedience training both of them at an early age because I did not want to end up with yappy/snappy little dogs that others would consider terrors!  I was uneducated about BYB's as well as the importance of teaching them independence though, and I have failed miserably at that. 

They do love people and they each respect me as their leader and I know that they are bonded to me even though they are also overly attached to eachother. DH still doesn't follow my line of thinking and sees nothing wrong with it.  He thinks it's great (he had a SA Brittany when we first met - he thinks raising 2 together is the remedy to SA)  It's obviously not an "ideal situation" since they still have the anxiety when one them is not at home.[&:] - so basically, they do have SA - it just only occurs when they are without eachother~

Can you share your opinion on whether or not I should "push" Willie through the next level obedience class even though he truly does not enjoy it.  Should I look for a different class?

 good for you for realizing before it's too late

Also, how old is "too late" - my guys are 16 months.[&:]

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

so you're saying it's a bad idea to teach a puppy that he can go places and do things without his brother without having a nervous breakdown? 

No reputable breeder will even place two littermates in the same home because of the very high probability of the dogs not developing properly and not bonding properly to humans. Experienced, dedicated owners can prevent these things from happening, but most owners simply don't have the time to roperly train and socialize one puppy, and forget about two.

The worst case I've ever seen was two male labs raised together. By age six months they had completely lost interest in humans. They were all to each other. Untrainable, uninterested in people, uninterested in other dogs. Owner got fed up and turned them both over to a shelter.

Not at all.  It is not my experience that just because the dogs are littermates and are in the same home, there will be problems.  It is my experience that two adults fosters can quickly bond and exhibit the same concerns, dependencies, and anxieties when placed apart.  As I stated, the dogs do get over it as separation time increases.  Come on, every dog is unique and exhibits their own unique personality traits.

I am open to competent authority or studies that prove one way or another.  I am only stating my actual home experience.

Personally, I don't think it is ever too late. And kudos to you for being aware. I had the problem for awhile.  Probably not to the extent that you have and mine wasn't littermates either.

But the pom got to thinking that nothing could be done without the entire "pack" (this is a problem I have with the pack modality).  Sometimes this is not feasible, nor safe.  A 7 pounder cannot always go and do (safely) what a 70 pounder can.

He would squall and go into fits when the big dog left with one of us.  All 4 of us  aren't together!  The whole world is falling apart!

So we just started doing things seperately.  I would take the pom, the SO would take the big one...and visa versa. We switched off a lot. The SO would take the pom, I would take the big dog.  And in opposite directions. We always made sure we had great fun with whichever dog we had.

But, we also retained our together times.

He didn't have a problem at all and is very independant now. Either of my dogs can watch out the window while both myself and the SO leaves with the other.  And be comfortable about it.

 I know to some, that may sound cruel.  But I think that it is beneficial to their mental health.

I really don't know if any of this applies to your situation.  But I hope you find something in here that helps you.

Can you share your opinion on whether or not I should "push" Willie through the next level obedience class even though he truly does not enjoy it. Should I look for a different class?

 
can you find something more fun, like a clicker-trick class or beginner agility class? If he's really not having any fun at all I don't think class will help him. Maybe just go different places and play silly games with him until he enjoys going to different places?

Either of my dogs can watch out the window while both myself and the SO leaves with the other.  And be comfortable about it.

JM; that is exactly what I need to teach my "pack".  I also foster for a GSD Rescue.  And you are correct, there are things you can do with an 80lb dog that just don't work the same with a 13 lb dog.  When I leave the room with "big dog", my tzus go CRAZY.  They exhibit behaviors and sounds that I have never seen in them before.  I don't know if dogs actually feel "jealous", but that's how one of the tzus behaves.  He whines and paws at Mason's face when I have him on leash, and he stretches up on his hind legs, paws at my legs and runs in circles, tripping Mason.  If I take Mason outside and they see me leave with him, they will both make this high pitched bark (which is not their normal bark) as if someone is torturing them!   I would LOVE it if they could learn to watch eachother and be confident that they still have a solid place in the pack.

mudpuppy: there is another school that is purely positive not too much further than the current kennel club we are going to.  The current class is mostly positive; they do use leash pops, but only after the dog has learned what the behavior is that you are asking for.  I have always used only positive methods with them, so maybe his response would be better at the other school.

I'm having trouble pinpointing his fear because he does fine when we visit a different home (my in-laws have 2 dogs and we go there overnight once in a while, they spend the night at my mother's house if I am going to be away from home too long to crate them, he enjoys visits to the local pet store and does fine at the vet.

Maybe the common demoninator is that Sam has always been with him those times?!

They exhibit behaviors and sounds that I have never seen in them before. I don't know if dogs actually feel "jealous", but that's how one of the tzus behaves. He whines and paws at Mason's face when I have him on leash, and he stretches up on his hind legs, paws at my legs and runs in circles, tripping Mason. If I take Mason outside and they see me leave with him, they will both make this high pitched bark (which is not their normal bark) as if someone is torturing them! I would LOVE it if they could learn to watch eachother and be confident that they still have a solid place in the pack.

 
This is bad behavior.
 
I had a dog that made a certain screaming sound/demanding,  and what I did was imitate him and he stopped it, never to repeat it again. 
 
I would try to control that situation a lot more.  Separate them so that poor ole Mason doesn't have to deal with that. Mason may decide one time that he is sick of that rudeness and have a little tszu snack!  (prevention is the best medicine)
 
I have no doubt jealousy happens with dogs.  Funny, I used to think thought that that was the reason a dog would cry when one dog got walked. But I think it is more on the lines of "i want to be walked too". 
 
It gets easier. Taking them to classes and just taking them out to socialize is great.

Here is the link to the other school that appears to use positive only methods. 
What do you guys think? 
Our current instructor says that the guy running the other school was a student and learned from them years ago .  She doesn't seem to have much respect for him.  Maybe it's because he's clicker-friendly?  But then again the trainer at the club has used clickers for her dogs also.[8|]  Maybe because they are so close in proximity that he's competition?

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