sleeping seperate from my husband, because of my dog

lonnie

A behavoralist told me to start putting bella in a crate. I feel so bad about it and I have read it could make her more aggressive.

Have you tried crating since the behaviorist recommended it?  How did that go?

Are they both spayed? 

The term is "crate and rotate" -- meaning you just don't give them the unguarded opportunity to be alone together ... ever.

Convenient?  no.  But it's what you do to avoid fights.  It means they both have to get more exercise and you re-arrange things like your historic "the dogs sleep with us".  No -- right now the dogs fight between us.  You can't allow that.  And you two humans need rest.  They haven't earned the right TO sleep with you.

They do NOT have to sleep with you.  It is a priviledge.  Move stuff around and put two crates in the bedroom (on opposite sides of the bed if they are passive/aggressive in the crates).

BOTH of them are crated.  "fair" -- these are dogs.  Just plain avoid the situation and crate both of them.  "fair" is a human thing.  Aggression grows if unchecked.  So you have to completely ensure that there are no opportunities TO fight -- and that includes one having a growling hizzy when the other walks by their crate. 

The rest of the time I use "nothing in life is free" -- that means you don't "demand" to be picked up -- you sit nicely at my feet until you re (invited* up.  And if these two are fighting all the time -- "crate and rotate" -- and if they are this aggressive, if they aren't both spayed they probably need to be.  But you have to stay ahead of them and elminiate potential fights by managing their where-abouts all the time.

I agree with the behaviorist.  All my dogs sleep crated until they *earn* the right to be on the bed or sleep where they pleased.  A dog that is acting a bully has clearly not earned any freedom.

 Two of my girls are in this situation right now. They're being crated and rotated. I refuse to give them an opportunity to fight.

Tina spends the night in a crate, I don't feel bad about this. She's always taken comfort being in a crate. It doesn't hurt that she's all of 28lbs and its a 42' crate!!  

It is a lot of work, you will feel bad about it. But crating and rotating is not the end of the world for most dogs.

This sounds like resource guarding with possibly some same sex aggression thrown in.  Both of these are common behavior issues that are  normal dog behavior.  It causes problems for the owners though.   I don't think having the more recent dog earn priveleges will have much impact. I do think that doing some simple obedience training, daily, with both dogs will help. 

Jean Donaldson has a very inexpensive booklet called "Mine, a Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" which might be helpful.  People don't always realize that dogs consider their humans as a resource worth guarding.  If you follow the protocol with both dogs you should see improvement though it may never be completely extinguished.

Crates are great and I wouldn't feel guilty about crating either dog or both rather than have them sleep in the bed.  The more fighting that takes place the worse it can become. 

Both my dogs are spayed. I forgot to mention that they only fight over me. its when I sit down, or when I go to bed.  They both want to be with me.  I still dont understand what crate and rotate mean? Does that mean one dog is in the crate and then the  next day the other?  Is it ok to put them in crates even though they are older now. 2 and 5?  Do the crates need to be in my bedroom or can they be out in the living room.  I did crate bella once in the bedroom and my husband and I had to leave the bedroom and sleep in the spare room because she cried all night. I tried again and crated bella in the living room.  She cried most of the night, but eventually fell asleep.  I never crated her again because I didnt feel it was right out of our four dogs (yes I also have two male dogs with no issues) she was the only one sleeping in a crate.  I felt bad sasha was on our bed and bella was in a crate. I wasnt sure if it was the right way to handle it.

So, both dogs should be in a crate at night?

in our room?

Thanks so much for the replies, Im sure my husband thanks you too :)

Lonnie

OOps I forgot one more thing.  When bella buds up into sasha and starts growling, do I take bella out of the situation and put her in her crate until she is calm? wont that make the crate a bad place?

lonnie

OOps I forgot one more thing.  When bella buds up into sasha and starts growling, do I take bella out of the situation and put her in her crate until she is calm? wont that make the crate a bad place?

I wouldn't put her in a crate but I would isolate her.  The *second* she tries to start something, I would pick her up (without saying a word to her or acknowledging her), set her outside the room, and close the door.  If she throws a fit, ignore her until she is quiet for a few minutes, then calmly invite her back in.

For crating at night, I think it's OK to have them in the room if they fit.  I keep all my dogs in our bedroom at night, one on the bed, one on the floor, and there used to be a third one in a crate.  However if there's not room I don't think it's terrible to crate them in another room.  Normally I would say that the dog who is not starting fights shouldn't have to be crated, but considering neither of them have been it might be a good opportunity to crate train both of them.  Sometimes dogs will never get along so at least this way they will both be more comfortable if you have to "crate and rotate" during the day.  I would not worry about not having all the dogs in the same place doing the same thing.  Dogs don't have the same understanding of what is "fair".  Like I said I used to have three dogs in my room, only one allowed on the bed and one in a crate and they never cared.  I say "go to bed" and the crated one would go into his crate and lie down before the door was even latched.  They get used to the routine and if there is no fighting involved it will be less stressful for everyone.

I don't think it's ever too late or a dog is ever too old to use a crate and crating them both might be the best idea while you work on some obedience. Having had 2 females that fought, I can tell you some of the mistakes we made and one was thinking we'd figured out who the instigator was. I think we were wrong quite often. We also tried initially to reinforce the resident dog's status in the hopes that the new addition would be more submissive to her. It didn't work at all. We ultimately ended up managing them separately and it wasn't easy.

I'd keep working closely with your behaviorist and enlist the help of a good trainer. In the meantime, use the crates wherever it works best so that you can get back to sleeping in your own bed

 My 10 month old puppy sleeps in a crate at night while my other 2 sleep in the bed with us. There are no hard feelings since the puppy gets a special treat when he goes in for the night.  He's also going through a phase of attacking my little dog so he gets no unsupervised freedom while she's around. 

cakana

I can tell you some of the mistakes we made and one was thinking we'd figured out who the instigator was. I think we were wrong quite often. We also tried initially to reinforce the resident dog's status in the hopes that the new addition would be more submissive to her. It didn't work at all

Excellent points, Cathy.  I completely agree about how easy it is to be wrong about which dog is instigating fights.  It's very easy to miss some subtle dog body language. 

Because some of this comes down to whether or not the OP is "comfortable" with crating (there are some of her comments that make me think she thinks it's "unfair" or maybe a bit mean).

 The OP is getting awesome suggestions -- I just want to say a bit about the benefits of teaching the skill of "being ok in a crate" (and it DOES have to be taught and encouraged!!)

fwiw -- I honestly think every dog on the planet should be "crate trained" to accept a crate early on without huge angst.  Leave them in crates every day?  Likely not.  Maybe someone is home  most days -- some of us have to crate, some of us don't.  BUT I firmly believe it should be in every dog's repetoire to be **able to be** crated without it making a mental wreck of them because they've never experienced it before!! 

Why?

 What happens when this dog gets deathly ill and has to be AT the vets (maybe a vet "hospital" or someplace huge)???  That's a hard situation for any dog, but for the dog who has never been crated?  it can literally mean the difference between a dog getting well and a dog so upset that it can't get well.

What happens when this dog **has** to go with you somewhere?  Every year there are the predictable conversations about dogs that have had to be evacuated because of hurricane, flooding, earthquake, mudslides, etc.    Give just a thought to the edge that a dog who is "ok" in a crate has to surviving something terrible as opposed to the dog who has never experienced crating.

So starting to crate train all four of yours?  That's not a bad thing even in a perfect world.  It levels the playing field.  It teaches all four of them la necessary skill in life. 

I remember after one hurricane 6-7 years ago a couple of posters on a board I was on who made pretty difficult remarks that they just would NEVER EVER have to go to a shelter because they had "family" who would take them in ... and they were pretty distainful that the worst just couldn't happen to them.  Impossible.

AS it happens -- they were all from the New Orleans area and then west into Texas.  Then Katrina happened -- and lo and behold there wasn't family TO take these folks in.  Most all of the extended families had all lost their homes.

My point is this -- you may think you'd "never need it" -- but then again it will help sanity now, and at the worst if you wind up going somewhere to stay with family, you will wind up with four dogs who will ultimately be welcome most anywhere because they WILL be ok in a crate.  You may not do it often, but if - with a little training, some treats and some management -- you do it, honestly ALL will benefit.

And as a side note - my bassett/beagle Luna -- she does not deal well with crating on a day to day long-term basis.  BUT short term she's fine with it.  If she had to be at the vet overnight, she'd be fine in a crate - she wouldn't enjoy it but she **would** be ok.  If we fostered a dog that made it necessary for everyone to BE crated - she'd be fine with it.

I'm not trying to get into a discussion of whether or not daily crating is needed or "ok" -- I'm just saying it's never EVER a waste to crate train a dog who has never experienced it.  It's a good skill and in a situation like this it can truly be a life-saver.  Teach all 4 the skill and then you can eventually unravel who has to continue to be crated.

ok so I will start crate training tonight. atleast for the three. My oldest he is 11 sleeps on his own and he is a big pit bull he doesnt bother a soul, so for now Ill leave him out

Is it ok for the crates to be in the living room?  I dont think we will get any sleep if the crates are in our bedroom.

Lonnie

 You can have the crates any where you want as long as you remember that it's all about training. Dodger screamed for the first 3 months of being in a crate (with the door shut). Now I can't get him out of the bloody thing..

Also if you have a wire crate, maybe try putting a blanket over top to make it more den like.