Shelter Dogs & Reactive Dogs??

Thanks Clifford for responding.  Clancy was only 10 months when we adopted him & our shelter was the second one that he was in. We know he had been abused & he was really hyper when we went to visit him. I haven't been to many shelters but ours was really nice. There were no crates. They were glass enclosed rooms & each room held 4 dogs, he happened to be alone when we picked him, when we asked why he had no room mates they said they were out being walked.

 My dog Callie isn't reactive in the typical sense, but she is a bit, and she is not from a shelter. She's an oops baby who we got from my cousins, and we have had since she was 8 weeks old (she turned 3 on Tuesday). She is reactive about dogs approaching her crate, and her other issue is a bit of a strange one. If a dog is at one side of the room, and she sees it, that is fine. Then, if she looks away, and the dog is then closer to her, she will react. I had another dog from a shelter who was not reactive to other dogs, but he became very reactive towards men, and became aggressive about several other issues. He did not start out that way. He had been perfectly fine until he was neutered. We're not quite sure what happened to him there. Actually, I know several other shelter dogs who aren't reactive at all, and several who are. I'm guessing part of it may have to do with what has happened to them.

My UKC APBT is reactive. She came from a breeder and we have had her since she was 10 weeks old. She also has genetic fear issues which I think is an extension of her dog reactivity. If you didn't know better there are times when you would think she was horribly abused; except that nothing even remotely bad has ever happened to her in her entire life and she is in fact by most people's standards spoiled filthy rotten.

As far as dog reactivity is concerned she is now 6 and we have made significant progress using a combination of LAT, BAT, naming and targeting and focus work. In fact this year (I was soooo proud of her) we went to Pet Supplies Plus for our Christmas pictures - we got there early to avoid a big crowd, but she stood in line for an hour between a pug in an elf suit and a pikanese in a stroller with lots of other dogs milling about - and no one knew she was reactive! I had treats of course and had to work at keeping her attention and coaching her the entire time but it was a big accomplishment for her.

I think fear definitely plays a role in her reactivity as she has never tried to hurt another dog, her MO has always been to attempt to bark and snarl them to death.

She has one dog friend and she could make more if anyone were patient enough to allow her time to get comfortable; however "want to hang out and let my snarly pit bull jump all over your dog, promise she's pretty much harmless" - surprisingly, does not get allot of takers. We also have not had a situation where we are comfortable letting her play off leash because she can get very wound up and easily tip over into play aggression...not a risk I would take.

I agree socialization is extremely important; but I think it always comes down to a combination of nature and nurture. My girl was with her breeder until 10 weeks old, but she was with littermates and the breeder (who has been breeding for over 20 years) made a signifiant effort towards socialization.

 When we got her we socialized her as much as possible, because I knew pit bulls genetically tended towards dog aggression and I wanted to avoid that if at all possible. The breeder said her dogs tended to be OK with other dogs. Anyway I tried socializing her with family dogs, but even as a young pup she was rude and in their face and relentless and the other dogs hated her. Grown dogs got exasperated and ran from her; so we ended up intervening and giving her a cool down - and not allowing her to harrass the other dogs. She was in puppy class at 12 weeks of age and stayed in class at 3 different training facilities every single week for about 5 years. We did obedience, Rally, agility, and took "special classes" like Outdoor Adventures and Control Unleashed. (Currently we do drop in Rally, she hurt her CCL so I took her out of agility).

 I've taken her everywhere with me since the day I got her; pet stores, the dry cleaner, the auto repair shop, dog friendly restaurants...everywhere dogs are allowed, and I still do. We walk in an entremely dog friendly neighborhood (free poop bag stations) and there are numerous dogs around on leash. When she was younger I would let her stop and "say hello" - until her behavior prevented that (reactivity started with some dogs around 9 months and escalated to most dogs between 3 - 4 years old).

 Her random fear issues started around 1 year of age w/ sound sensitivity and fear of fireworks and thunderstorms. She is sometimes a little fearful around "novel objects"; such as a cone in the street - but it depends on her "mood" - and she has certainly seen countless street cones for example - but if she comes upon it suddenly and it is more noticable b/c there is nothing else going on in the environment it can freak her out a bit. There have been times when she has developed a fear of certain steets or neighborhoods and refused to walk there, but will walk elsewhere, then we manage to get her over it and she is absolutely fine in those places, then it resurfaces again. She is sometimes afraid of certain lights, shadows, movements...and other times completely unphased by them. When she gets spooked, it sticks around for a while, maybe days, maybe weeks...where she isn't afraid the entire time but just more easily spooked, and quieter, not sure of herself (if she's in a a scary mood she won't say "Boo" to another dog even without my intervening). Then when she is herself she is confident, boisterous, pushy, ready to take on the world.

I'm learning allot from her and I think i've finally learned how to work with her and her various issues; but it has been a challenge!

 I haven't talked to the breeder in years, but I do remember early on I as was asking her about Veronica's allergies (and she denied that any of her dogs had allergy issues, so maybe she wasn't entirely forthcoming on issues). She voluntered that she "was forced to take one dog back" because the "the guy siad the dog was a wus". I didn't think much of it at the time because Veronica's fear issues hadn't really taken hold yet, but in retrospect I think it is interesting. I should also re-iterate that nothing bad has ever happened to Veronica, she is a house dog, she is never alone because she stays with my elderly Mom during the day (in-law apartment), she is doted on but not babied, and outside of a few mild leash corrections we use only positive reinforcement and negative punishment.

clancysmum

We know he had been abused

It's important to understand that dogs end up in rescues for many many reasons, and the biggest volume might just be crappy first owners who never took the time to carefully select a dog from a good breeder, never properly socialized the dog and exposed him to things so that he could be accustomed to them and not react out of fear or aggression toward the unknown, etc.

I'd suggest you read this article: The Abuse Excuse

It's given out to adopters across the country because folks spend so much time excusing or trying to analyze causes of behavior, rather than dealing with the dog they have in front of them in a constructive and productive way for his PRESENT self.

gmcbogger38

but I would think a reputable breeder wouldn't breed any dogs showing signs of aggression in order to better the breed.

PS, bold by me, AMEN!  Glad you joined the board, gmcbogger!  A sensible voice here.

PPS, my girl was born at a shelter and is often referred to as "Voted Most Popular in High School" - Every human she's met (many previously afraid of Dobes) and every dog has loved her, and there's never been a dog-aggressive dog she couldn't get to interact with her in a positive manner. She was produced by a BYB who lucked out that the temperament of his sire and dam were really very sweet and good-natured.  Sometimes it's genetic temperament tendencies that has a heavy load in the outcome of a dog, no matter what environmental management might have taken place.  Work with what you've got, and if you're not sure of what you've got - consult a professional trainer with LOADS of experience in DA and sharp/shy dogs.  Not someone who earned certificates online or attends more hours in conferences than putting hands on actual real-life dogs.

gmcbogger38

The fact that the breeder said she was "forced" to take a dog back does not sound good to me. All breeders I have researched that I would use all say they will take a dog back no matter what the reason is for returning it. Did she temperament test dogs before breeding them? I'm not a dog expert by any means, but if she was acting that way at such a young age I would think it was due to the breeding and not anything y'all did. I know pits have been bred for dog aggression, but I would think a reputable breeder wouldn't breed any dogs showing signs of aggression in order to better the breed.

 Once upon a time (20+ years ago) she was a very reputable breeder (live and learn); I think over the years things got very slack and breeding became more of an economic pursuit (i.e no longer showing and titling dogs). I'm not sure if she temperment tests her dogs or not; I know fear isn't a common issue in her dogs or I believe you would hear allot more about it because it's a very well known line (York).

 I did however get the distinct impression that she was not keen on taking dogs back. The conversation came about because in my trying to find out about the allergies, it came out that she thought I wanted her to take the dog back (like I would give back a dog that I had had for an entire year????) and that is how I got the story of the dog she took back for fear issues.

I'm really confident it's nothing that we did, because we really made a conscious effort to do and I believe we did, all the right things.

 With regard to the issue of dog aggression; my dog actually is not DA; she is reactive. Some people lump them together, they are definitely behaviors on the same continuum, but I think sufficiently different enough to warrent a distinction. My dogs reactivity is fear and anxiety based. Truely DA pit bulls, from what other pit bull owners and breeders tell me; just really love a good fight - or at least their behavior is offensively driven. My dogs behavior when it was bad amounted to distance increasing signals. She didn't want to tangle, she wanted the other dog to get out of her space.

As far as reputable breeders breeding known DA dogs...here's were it gets tricky and controversial and I am only repeating what I have read for the past 5 years on pit bull forums. DA is considered a pit bull trait; not a good thing, not a bad thing...it just "is"....more often than not. Would a reputable breeder breed 2 dogs specifically for dog aggression - no. Would a reputable breeder if they had 2 dogs that were in every way perfect specimens of the breed - BUT also happened to be DA - not breed because of the DA issue? They would still proceed with the breeding - the DA is not considered to be that relevant.

There is another hugely controversial and hotly debated issue on the pit bull forums on the subject of: why not breed DA out of the breed, by not breeding DA dogs. Most pit bull owners will tell you  that DA is not a desirable trait, but a trade off - something one puts up with to get all the other good qualities in their breed of choice. However it is argued that if you specifically breed against DA, then you change the breed and in trying to change this 1 thing, you change other characteristics as well...then the dog you are left with is not...an American Pit Bull Terrier. The line of thinking connects to the Russian fox studies where the foxes were bred for tameness but in the end lots of other things changed as well to include physical characteristics.

Not entirely certain how I feel about the above; from a genetic standpoint I get it and I understand a desire to keep the breed pure. It's something people tend to feel strongly about one way or another. But I've never come across a breeder who said they wouldn't breed specifically because of DA."

Veronica's Mom

As far as reputable breeders breeding known DA dogs...here's were it gets tricky and controversial