dog fight

I would either re-home one or err on the side of prevention and manage them so they cannot fight rather than allow them access to each other and have to break up fights.  Some dogs - especially females - just never get along.  No amount of training and socialization may ever make them tolerate each other. "Bitches equal stitches."

Liesje

. "Bitches equal stitches."

Which is why I have always preferred males.

I wish you the best. If it is unmanageable to keep the dogs seperated at all times and if you dont want to go with the personal in home trainer method, re-homing may be your best option. I personally would go with the trainer and although it would take a LOT of time, patience and effort, I would do it so I could keep my pet. Like Liesje said though...some females do not tolerate one another, ever.

They don't call them bitches for nuthin!

Ditto everyone else.  Either rehome one or TOTAL separation and management.  Direct Stop probably won't be helpful.  Once they get into that "zone" they are so focused on harming one another that it often takes far more than an unpleasant spray to stop them.

glenmar

Direct Stop probably won't be helpful.  Once they get into that "zone" they are so focused on harming one another that it often takes far more than an unpleasant spray to stop them

I emptied an entire canister of Direct Stop trying to break up a fight between my 2 girls. It did absolutely nothing. The initial fights were easy to break up but they escalated in intensity and damage each time. Ultimately, complete separation was the only option and it's a tough way to live.

There are still things that you could do before re homing or make them live separate forever in the same house. The bad thing is that you would have to be able to notice what triggers the fights to see what you need to work on. From there you would have to work with both in the same room while they both have a muzzle on to prevent accidents.

From there is not even knowing what to do to avoid a fight but probably more important is knowing what to do AFTER a fight. You can not just separate them and place them in different rooms because that would leave them with a "grudge" for the next time

This could be an EXTREMELY hard thing to accomplish and even some trainers and dog savvy people in this forum would not be able to achieve that goal.

If a trainer was not helpful then I doubt a dog forum will do the trick. You need to know about body language and behavior modification. Not only knowing one technique but be ready to use several techniques if the first one didnt work.

You could keep looking for trainers until you get one that can actually help you because knows enough to work with the problem. Definitely you should not try to do this by yourself.

What respectable trainer is going to tell a client they can actually convince a pair of littermate females who already have a history of escalated fights that these dogs can safely live together?  IMO the triggers are kind of a moot point especially when the trigger is that the two dogs are in the same room.  To have to constantly monitor and manage that....not worth the stress on the humans AND the dogs.  To me muzzling is a band-aid solution, also not fair to the dogs.  It prevents the humans from getting bit but means nothing to dogs, any contact even with a muzzle is still a "bite" to the dog, that is why muzzles are used in protection work (*not* to protect the decoys from actual bites).

Normally since we can't see what's going on we can't that the OP's word for it but the mention of "gashes" to various parts of the body leads me to give them the benefit of the doubt, these bitches are fighting.

Liesje

What respectable trainer is going to tell a client they can actually convince a pair of littermate females who already have a history of escalated fights that these dogs can safely live together?  IMO the triggers are kind of a moot point especially when the trigger is that the two dogs are in the same room.  To have to constantly monitor and manage that....not worth the stress on the humans AND the dogs. 

Buffy and Sassy weren't littermates but the behaviorist/trainer did evaluate them and say that she thought they generally liked each other and gave us some tips for working with each of them separately and together. She also said that if things escalated, we'd need to consider a different path and they did. She's the one who recommended the Direct Stop. I think it's hard for an outsider to get a clear picture though, unless they observe in many different situations. Buffy and Sassy could be around each other and having fun for weeks at a time and then for reasons we were never able to predict, they'd have a fight.

Totally agree that it's no fun for the humans nor for the dogs. It's one of the things I'm feeling a little sad about this week with Buffy's passing. We brought Sassy home so she'd have a buddy and it backfired and she ended up shortchanged on time and attention.

Might I just say that in my experience, male dogs primarily fight for show, while the girls, once they've taken an issue to one another, will fight for blood.  The female is the more "blood thirsty" of the species in my own experience.

Could a trainer help?  Maybe.  Never say never.  But is it worth the emotional trauma and possible serious physical injury to wait around to find out?  IMHO, its not.  So, if both girls remain in the home, there must be serious management to be certain that they never have the opportunity to fight, and that means complete and total separation and that is a tough job.  Stressful for the dogs as well as the humans.

I'm not going to debate training methods, however, when you already have an on edge dog, it's not a great idea to tick her off more with some of the harsher training methods.

espencer is right when he says that all we can basically offer on the forum is suggestions and moral support.  And, I further agree that this is not something you'll be able to handle "training" on your own.

But, please do keep us updated, and lean on us for all the support we can provide.  That's what we're here for!

We have usally been good about keeping them apart.  Putting one in a cage or a separt room before even thinking about bringing the other dog out or going into the room with the other dog. What happened in this case is that i was walking Puppy at 4 in the morning and My son let Stich out. Then when I came in a big fight.started. From now on I will have to check before I  come in.

 I also would have a hard time giving one away.  Puppy does not like strangers and gets very deffensive of me.  So she would be hard to give away. My oldest son wants to take Stich with him when he is finished with college in about a year. So we have been trying to make it work and keep them apart. This works most of the time. 

 The dog fighting started when they were about 2. Then people starting telling me not to keep littermates espcailly females. So it will NOT HAPPEN AGAIN. I could look in to a in home trainer. The prevoius trainer didnt work but that was not a in home one. I know this is mostly if not all my fault but I still need to know how to fix it. I'm hoping we can make it work untill Stich and my son move out. Puppy gets along with the other dogs (jack and grandma) and so does Stich. its just Stich and Puppy that fight.

If anyone knows of a good inhome trainer in eastern iowa. cedar rapids' iowa city area let me know

 thanks katt 

Fighting starting around 2 happens a lot, that is when dogs tend to mature.  When they are young, like human kids, they let a lot of things slide and will often play with or at least tolerate anyone.  But as they mature their temperaments set in (and this is genetic) and a dog that they previously tolerated they may no longer tolerate in their space.

I think your son taking one dog is a good solution, but I'm not sure being able to "fix" this until then is realistic.  I think just keeping them apart and rotating them around is going to be the safest thing you can do.

If you hook up with a trainer, honestly I would focus on training each dog as an individual and not dwell on this fighting thing.  Often through training you develop a closer bond and the dog learns more respect of you and this can carry over into other aspects.  I'm not saying it will solve the problem, but I wouldn't want to see these dogs' training defined based on their fighting which may be something that is just always going to be.  Train each dog individually for who they are and what their individual strengths and weaknesses are.  That is something you can keep doing whether they stop fighting or not and whether you keep one or both.

Liesje

IMO the triggers are kind of a moot point especially when the trigger is that the two dogs are in the same room. 

Ignoring triggers will bring you the same amount of fighting than before, your statement almost sounds like a rookie statement. Are you 100% that the trigger is "just being" in the same room? Were you there to confirm that one does not always give a rude look to the other? Were you there to confirm that one of them was not looking at the other's toy on the floor? Were you there to confirm that one demands the attention from the owner the other disagrees with? I dont think you were there to say with 100% accuracy what the trigger is. For that a trainer needs to be there and LOOK at the dogs to confirm what the triggers are.

Chuck is too dominant with my current foster. "Just being" in a room is not a trigger but if i dont correct Chuck's dominant approaches he would take any opportunity he has to dominate the foster every time they are in the same room. Any rookie would think that "being in the same room" is what triggers the behavior.

Liesje

To have to constantly monitor and manage that....not worth the stress on the humans AND the dogs.  To me muzzling is a band-aid solution, also not fair to the dogs.  It prevents the humans from getting bit but means nothing to dogs, any contact even with a muzzle is still a "bite" to the dog, that is why muzzles are used in protection work

Not worth it for you maybe, it would be worth for me to stress over it and try to work with them. I dont know if you have asked the OP if he/she thinks is worth it. I dont remember saying to put a muzzle on the dogs, go ahead to do your daily activities and let them muzzle punch each other as much as they want.

A TRAINER should muzzle both dogs if he plans to have them together in a room while he works with them to avoid drawing blood as much as possible. To be as safe as he can be to do the exercise he thinks is the best for the situation.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree.  My opinion is that if the dogs need to be muzzled to avoid drawing blood while in the same room then whatever "triggers" you are talking about have already happened and been ignored.  They should never be allowed to get to a state where they are going to fight like that, whether it is the owner with them or you or Cesar or the World's Best Dog Trainer.  The OP could certainly use muzzles as protection right now if s/he intends to keep both dogs until the other person can take one (which to me sounded like a good option) but the muzzle is just a band-aid that is protecting the owner and physically protecting the dogs but not mentally.  If someone in the family can take one of the dogs soon it just makes more sense to keep them completely apart, since good muzzles can be expensive and might take some time to find the right fit.  The OP should not feel s/he has to make this work or that they have failed if they cannot force these dogs to accept each other.  Most people who have had multiple dogs have had experiences with dogs who cannot safely be together without close supervision.

Obviously I was not there which is why all of my posts err on the side of extreme caution - keeping these dogs safe by keeping them apart.  I can't advise this person to put on muzzles and look for triggers that may or may not exist.