Royce will NOT trade

This is a safety issue.  For me, I'd be wrapping his lips around his teeth and prying his mouth open while simultaneously pairing it with whatever the command you're using (mine is OUT) until the thing is out of his mouth, take it out of his reach and praise like holy heck and give him the OTHER thing as the reward.  I wouldn't keep begging him since he's frustrated.  I'm sure there's some soft version that gets there eventually, but if he's part Rott or GSD, I wouldn't be allowing this to continue.  Especially w/Rott background possible/probable.

My only concern with the above that I have seen working with dogs like this, is that a lot of dogs who learn to "drop it" by force (no, I do not consider it abusive, but it is still physical force nonetheless) will begin to predict when you are about to approach and take things from them,  and  they then begin swallowing things quickly before you get there to prevent you from having them, or running off to play keep away.  And that is a very dangerous skill to try to then re-train, for sure.

For me, I would not be trying to tease and tempt the dog once the dog already has something that high of value unless it's crucial at that point. At that point you have already gone past the point where you can have a successful trade. In an emergency, I may do the above for sure if I know that the dog will not bite me. But I would not as a regular training method. I would be managing the environment, while teaching the dog *before* the dog gets anxious about what is in its mouth (and probably because you have paid *a lot* of extra attention to him at that point you can likely accidentally helped increase the value of some of those items. After all, the more you worry about it - the more important it must be, right!??)   by setting up actual trading game protocols like is outline in Jean Donaldson's "Mine: A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs". Another skill I would be likely to teach is a strong Retrieve - I know a lot of these types of dogs are happy to change from "I want to take it from you" to "Retrieve that item for me" and they will happily bring objects to you rather than you going to try to get things from them. Changing the dynamic of the exercise can change the value of the item.

What types of things do you need to take from him or trade him for?  Are these things he should not have in the first place? If so I would use more management to keep him from getting inappropriate stuff in his mouth.  If he can't lick a container without eating it, he doesn't get to lick containers (Pan can be like that, just starts licking and chewing before he even knows what he has).

I train my GSDs an out ("aus";) command and I don't do it by trading.  To me when I say "out" that means you drop it b/c I say so.  If the dog is already being grabby or overly possessive, trading is still rewarding that behavior.  There are times that my dogs just need to give it up (usually a safety reason) and aren't going to get anything in return other than mark/praise for a clean out.  I generally train the command using a tug.  I get the dog in drive and get him locked on the tug.  Then I lock up, holding the tug firm against my thigh so it is "dead" and give my out command.  Since I'm not tugging back, eventually the dog lets go and at that point I mark, say "OK" so the dog is released and can again chase and bite at the tug (so in this exercise the reward for outing is getting to play again, I don't want out to signal the end of the fun!).  If the dog won't out clean after weeks of trying I will use -R.  How much, when, and how really depends on the dog.  Pan, who has IMO high drive with a relatively low threshold (meaning right now he's actually a bit overloaded and crazier than what I like for a working dog) learned a clean out in about 3 days. I still pop out his tug and proof it every now and then.  Once I trained it this way, it carried over into general things like having him drop an object that wasn't appropriate for him.

Another reason I don't trade or use food to train outs is because generally I am training an out using an object that is the highest value to my dog.  They aren't going to out for food when they're tugging on their favorite ball.  Plus when I train this way I prefer to reward a behavior that is offered rather than lure it.  So, I'd rather command the dog to out, lock up and wait for the dog to comply, then praise and reward for the dog making that choice rather than using something else to bribe the dog off the current object or use force to remove the dog..the latter of which often has the result that Kim describes or just creates more frustration which creates more drive.

Sometimes I also use out in combination with a behavior that is incompatible.  I have always struggled with Nikon outing his ball.  He outs *everything* else clean (and his outs in protection are clean).  But with the ball he has the tendency to out and then grab at it repeatedly.  With him I will ask him to out and then sit, since when he sits he kind of scoots back and then can't keep chomping at the ball while I'm trying to pick it up.

One thing to keep in mind is to not fight the dog.  When DH tries to out my dogs while playing tug, they rarely obey but it is not because they don't know the command.  It is because he is inadvertently doing things that make the dog feel like they still need to possess the object.  For example, he might say out but not lock up so he's still tugging with the dog.  A high drive dog is NOT going to release the object while you are still fighting back (and these German working breeds instinctively should not do so).  Or, DH will say out in a tone that is not very convincing.  I just say "out!" not in a mean way, but in a neutral, do it now kind of way, and I reach in and take the object with the attitude that it's mine.  DH uses a more hesitant tone, and will reach down and then pull back, etc, which just invites the dog to play that game of grabbing at the object.

 I agree with Kim's suggestions, plus I would teach him a good "leave it" so that you can pre-empt him from picking up a forbidden object.  I do not EVER think it's a good idea to pry a dog's mouth open to take his stuff.  That often leads to dogs getting even more aggressive in their guarding behavior.  http://www.vivapets.com/article.php?id=383

Kim_MacMillan

and  they then begin swallowing things quickly before you get there to prevent you from having them, or running off to play keep away.  And that is a very dangerous skill to try to then re-train, for sure.

miranadobe

*that* makes sense.  Good point.  I should stop posting on these things! :)

Please don't!  There are lots of dogs for whom what you posted is never a problem. Unfortunately I don't just get those phone calls. LOL. I get the calls where it has become a problem! Just enough so that it's always a concern for me, and I see that risk here.

I don't want to make it sound like I never handle my dogs mouths or take things from them. To be honest, I make sure from a young age that my dogs are comfortable letting me take things from them right out of their mouths, so that I *can* open their mouth when necessary. It helps for emergency situations for sure, and it also helps for general mouth maintenance. Right now I probably open Kash's mouth once or twice a day to look at his teeth coming in and to monitor loose teeth! I have taken many items from him without having something to trade with first, but I have an idea in my head about how often I am doing it, and what association I am making with it. Kash doesn't care in the least if I take something from him now. But I didn't start it when he already had something he was anxious about keeping it.   And in 85% of the cases if he picks up something he shouldn't, he now automatically brings it to me (I always say "Whatcha got there?";). Last night he found a razor I threw out but it fell behind the trash instead of in it, and he came into the bedroom with it, just dancing away. I said "Whatcha got there?" and he ran over to me, wiggling madly so that I'd interact with him with it, and after a few seconds dropped it right into my hand all on his own. It's a habit that he doesn't really think about anymore all that much.

I do love the trading game, and I played it with Kash recently. While he has *never* guarded anything from me, he started eating raw recently. It doesn't get that much more high value for my guys! I gave him a beef rib and then a little later went to check on how he was doing. Boy,he did not want me to see that! I shouldn't really be surprised - he has never had one, is immature, and handled the situation in the only way he knew how - by stiffening up and letting me know he reallllllllllllly wanted to keep this.  We did play two quick mini-sessions of "the trading game" where each time he won his rib back (he wouldn't trade for any other food item on its own, but he did trade for *anything* that is in his food DISH!), and afterwards when I approached he would calmly look up to see what was going on and I could take it easily from then on!  A situation that quickly was changed back to normal, but in the wrong situation could definitely have been made 100% worse then and there.

spiritdogs

I do not EVER think it's a good idea to pry a dog's mouth open to take his stuff.  That often leads to dogs getting even more aggressive in their guarding behavior.  http://www.vivapets.com/article.php?id=383

Disagree. I don't think you should always have to pry open a dog's mouth, but come on, all show dogs have their mouths opened all the time and you don't see them all flipping out and attacking their handlers or the judge.  If you accustom a dog to being handled that way from a young age, it's a complete non-issue.  Like Kim, I check my dogs' teeth/bite all the time, both because as they grow I am genuinely curious, and because they need to have their bite very closely examined in the show ring (SV shows are not like AKC/UKC, the judge counts the teeth and very carefully inspects the bite).  Granted, we're not always taking stuff from the dog's mouth, but IMO inappropriate resource guarding is still resource guarding whether you have to pry a dog's mouth open or don't b/c you're afraid of getting bit in the process.

Pan has a very clean outing behavior he learned very quickly despite his obsession with certain toys and his overloaded prey drive.  When we fetch he doesn't always drop the ball but I reach down and pinch it between my fingers while it's in his mouth and he releases without a command.  I actually prefer taking stuff directly from the mouth before the dog drops it in the dirt.

Really, I think this all has to do with how the dog was raised and handled.  I think nothing of opening my dogs' mouths or having them release objects to me directly by me taking hold while it's still in the mouth.  If the dog had something unsafe I would have absolutely no qualms prying the mouth open and taking it.

Liesje

Really, I think this all has to do with how the dog was raised and handled. 

I do agree w/you.  I practiced the same behaviors you and Kim did/do - I opened G's mouth any time I wanted to and taught a very solid out command from such an early point that I think out could very likely be her strongest command.  I never let her get the idea even once that she had an option on "out" and she's neither a resource guarder, nor shy of hands at her face, nor reluctant to relinquish anything, nor a gulper - part of that may be her general preferences and temperament, the other part is definitely in how she was raised/handled  Now, had she gotten the idea that she could keep it while I waited her out or tried to give her more options, I think we could easily have been in the position of the OP.

So, now, starting from that position, I'd take Kim's advice.  Next time, with good training, you won't be in this position again.

spiritdogs

That often leads to dogs getting even more aggressive in their guarding behavior.  http://www.vivapets.com/article.php?id=383

Agreed with whoever said show dogs are not more aggro because of this. Some judges are MEAN with a dogs mouth...and others need to COUNT teeth...this means the dogs mouth is HELD OPEN. They do not and cannot be freaking out or trying to bite. You just need to acclimate them when they're small to having their mouths opened and held open. I mean sheesh...some of us need to scale teeth, give pills, and search for "contraband" in our dogs mouths on a pretty regular basis LOL! We needn't always jump to 'if you touch your dog while training it it will one day rip your face off and kill you"

rwbeagles

search for "contraband" in our dogs mouths on a pretty regular basis LOL!

I think that Kim's suggestions are excellent and I can see Ann's point for some dogs

BUT I think it is important to be able to handle a dog's mouth safely and take stuff from them.

We have had to stick our hands in his mouth and down his darn gullet countless times and he has no guardiness at all - and fortunately he isn't one to swallow/gulp whatever he has in his mouth. That would be my higher concern with Royce.

A few thoughts and suggestions for you, Beejou.  With a pup, I like to always use something irresistable for the trade item.  I never start this type training using a dog cookie.  I always make sure I use something like roast beef or whatever you have that the dog doesn't get on a regular basis and that the dog considers the best thing in the world. 

Kim touched on another aspect of the trade training and that is giving the item back to the dog after it has released it.  Trade back and forth so the pup doesn't learn that once you take away the coveted item, it's gone for good.  Of course this means you must manage toys, nylabones, rawhides, etc. so you can control the training.  Owners usually teach the opposite and the dog quickly learns to run away with the item it wishes to keep because it won't get it back.   Keeping the dog on a lead, even in the house, allows you to always be able to get the dog to you if you don't have a good recall trained yet.

When teaching the dog to release when retrieving, I do all early training in a hallway with one end closed off.  I sit on the floor and throw the ball or bumper and when the pup has the ball, I encourage them to return to me.  Once they get to me (I'm still sitting on the floor) I never reach for the ball at first.  I gently take the pup and hold it around the waist, all the while praising "good hold".  I hover my hand, barely touching the ball, never applying any pull, until the dog releases the ball.  As the pup releases, I say "good drop".  I've had to wait for quite some time for some pups to release but I don't tense up or say anything, as I patiently wait out the dog.  I just continue to hold the dog close to me and my other hand ready to receive the dropped ball. 

GabbyG was so incredibly food crazy when I found her that teaching her to trade something I didn't want her to swallow was a huge priority. She was incredibly guardy with anything she considered food, which encompassed a huge range of things I didn't want her to eat. I knew I had to be proactive with this training and I started it right away.  I coupled teaching her to trade with a good recall so that she doesn't run from me when she has something I need to take from her.   She has trained me too and will occasionally find a tissue or a sock and show me, in hopes of getting a good reward for dropping it.  I always comply and then go make sure there aren't any more items laying around that she can pick up.  :)  

I've used the method Paige described with many dogs and never had any sort of aggression problem result, but I have trained some dogs that are oblivious to the pressure of tooth on lip and then you're stuck with having to exert even more pressure to get the dog to release.   This isn't good for dog or owner and I gave up this method in favor of using my so called larger brain to get what I want.

ETA to fix some typos

I guess I have a pretty black and white standpoint on this type of issue.  Personally, I cannot own a dog that I am not able to "handle", which includes removing objects from the dog's mouth whether he is willing or trained to give them, and regularly examining the dog's mouth.  I know someone with a dog that gets crazy if you touch even close to his feet.  She has to pay someone else to muzzle and wrestle with the dog just to trim the nails.  Honestly I could not own a dog like that, especially considering what we just went through with Nikon's foot being infected for two months....I had enough trouble keeping him from trying to lick/chew the wound, let alone if I'd had a dog that would not allow me to clean the wounds, remove dead tissue, soak, wrap...rinse repeat 3 times a day.  If a dog is so guardy that I cannot get near the face/mouth, to me that is a bigger issue than just whether or not I should pry the object out or do a trade.  If I feel I *have* to do a trade, that signals a big problem, not just the issue of training the dog how to trade.  Does that make sense?  There are certain issues I'm willing to deal with and certain ones I am not.  Because my dogs are large and powerful, I need to always feel safe and confidence handling them, even if it might be uncomfortable for them.

But I also think there's a difference between a truly guardy/aggressive dog and a dog that is just VERY quick about picking up stuff and eating really fast.  Pan is very much the latter.  If I drop something, it *might* be a treat so he will grab it in his mouth.  Like eat first, taste/smell later.  With him I am much more about management, making sure he can't find stuff to chew/eat.  But when he does get something, he is not guardy, and he doesn't grab stuff because he's guardy.  He will out/release things on command (or just let me take them from his mouth) with no resistance.

ETA:  I think Jackie is correct, the more force you need to use, the more it will continue to take.  This is a problem I have with Nikon outing his ball.  For one thing, sometimes using force is not actually aversive enough and it becomes more of a game to the dog.  You are making more of a play-fight, adding more frustration, which just amplifies the dog's drive and resistance.  Another problem is that the command becomes associated with the use of force.  If Nikon has his ball and you say "aus!" he will back away, start chewing on it real hard.  He knows eventually he has to give it up but the command has become associated with the force/struggle.  "Aus" no longer means "drop the object" but "ok, now we're going to play that game where the handler tries to get your ball!" I do use corrections and force for some things but like I said originally, when you do this it needs to be appropriate so that it gets the result instantly.  If the use of force just creates MORE of a struggle with the dog so now you are repeating your command, getting frustrated with the dog, and continuously applying pressure, then whatever force is being used is not working.  Either it's just not the right way to go about it or the type of force and how it is applied is not going to work for that dog.