heeelp! Crate training; gradual vs. sudden

I do not think it is really a matter of what crate training method is best.  There are a lot of methods and gimmicks; different ones work for different dogs in the same house under the same owner.  IMO the number one thing I keep in mind regardless of what I am training is that the communication must be clear to the dog and I must be consistent with what I am trying to teach.  I am of the mind that my house is MY house.  It belongs to me so I decided who has access to what and when.  Dogs can throw fits and scream all day and it doesn't change how I feel about it.  They are not the boss.  Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of my training involves "positive" methods (food, toys, clicker, ignoring the "bad" and throwing a party over the good, etc).  When I have a puppy, the puppy is the one that needs to earn the freedoms and privileges of the older, existing dogs.  My last two dogs have been puppies but if I were to adopt an adult the same applies.  I absolutely crate train from day one.  That doesn't mean throwing the dog in the crate all day, but I try to develop a routine, a schedule that becomes predictable to the dog.  For example, after I let my dogs out for the last time, they all go upstairs on their own, the youngest goes into his crate and the older ones hop up on the bed.  Anyway, if I have a new dog (puppy or adult), the dog is safely confined - whether that is a crate, a gated dog-proof room, or expen - any time I am not directly supervising the dog, until the dog is trustworthy having more free reign of the house and has shown appropriate interactions with the other dogs.  I have two intact male German Shepherd dogs that I specifically chose for their level of power and aggression and yet no dog in my house has ever growled at me and I've never had a dog fight.  I feed my dogs all at the same time, this morning all my dogs walked in a busy parade with other dogs and being pet and cheered by throngs of people.  They truly are nice, well adjusted dogs.  I am not an evil dictator either, I have simply managed my dogs from day one so that they do not need to take control because *I* am in control.  Their home lives are predictable, they know they will be loved and fed and cared for so there's no reason to push each other around or get in my face.

Yes.  What Lies said.  When my dogs were younger, they were always fed in their crates.  Always.  Now, only one of my boys eats in his crate, and that is ONLY because he insists on it.  But, in my house, no one is allowed to take someone elses food and they all know that.  If it takes me constantly supervising, so be it, that's my job as the "boss", to make sure that my rules are followed and that everyone is behaving politely to one another.

As far as not protecting your property, well, every dog is different, and it sounds like he's just a pretty laid back guy.  I wouldn't try to change that, particularly with his breed.

However, the newcomers DO need to understand how things work in your home, and they can be trained the same way that this boy was trained.  Gently, but firmly.

I'm sort of confused at what your question is.  What do you mean when you say you need to get control over their learning processes and what does the term "pack up" mean?  

Dogs do have different relationships with each other.  I don't try and change how they relate to each other unless there is dangerous aggression involved. 

I don't think using a slow, not stressful method of crate training made your one year pit into a dog who won't defend himself or your property.  More likely that's just his personality at this age and stage of his development. 

When I'm crate training, I use treats but I don't use the same method you do.  That's not saying your method is wrong. I will let a dog or puppy cry when locked in the crate during the training.  Most pups or adult dogs will learn fairly quickly that crying, barking or throwing a fit will not get them out of the crate.  I don't think the stress caused by this method makes a dog any more or less likely to defend it's food or property.

Jackie; Im sorry, "pack up" is just a term i cooked up to describe the negative things dog learn from each other when they live together freely, with no supervision, (like "hey! we don't really need you, dufuss!)

I agree also on the non interference in dogs business. I did slowly slide between them (the two adults) a couple of times when they were both groweling and staring at each other (when I first introduced them,) but I didn't make a big deal out of it and walked away calling them to follow, which they did, thankfully ( im afraid of what would happen if the pit suddenly grows a pair and decides to put his foot down.....nahhh, not Billy, aint gonna happen.

Actually, He may really be the one in control and the rest of us don't know it yet (when she mounts him and barks at him its a high-pitched anxious bark, not a low gruff threat type bark...if I am hearing the tone right, could he be pretending to let her be the boss???? I would also like to know what Liesje and Spiritdogs ( and others) think about this.

Never say never.  He may reach the end of his rope with being pushed around and the results may not be good....which is why you need to get some control over the other two ASAP.

I don't think dogs pretend when they interact.  I usually let my dogs deal with this type of behavior themselves.  That's assuming the dogs involved have decent dog social skills.  If I feel a dog is being bullied and looks uncomfortable and seems unable to escape the unwanted attention, I might separate them without any sort of implication that one is in the wrong.  My youngest dog, Gabby can be very annoying to the other dogs and there are times I put her in her crate when she's being a pest.

Thanks Liesje;

Gelli The GSD is currently on a tether till morning.

tex123

Jackie; Im sorry, "pack up" is just a term i cooked up to describe the negative things dog learn from each other when they live together freely, with no supervision, (like "hey! we don't really need you, dufuss!)

I agree also on the non interference in dogs business. I did slowly slide between them (the two adults) a couple of times when they were both groweling and staring at each other (when I first introduced them,) but I didn't make a big deal out of it and walked away calling them to follow, which they did, thankfully ( im afraid of what would happen if the pit suddenly grows a pair and decides to put his foot down.....nahhh, not Billy, aint gonna happen.

Actually, He may really be the one in control and the rest of us don't know it yet (when she mounts him and barks at him its a high-pitched anxious bark, not a low gruff threat type bark...if I am hearing the tone right, could he be pretending to let her be the boss???? I would also like to know what Liesje and Spiritdogs ( and others) think about this.

Well, since you asked....  Your Pit is probably just a nice dog.  Pits are NOT guard dogs, nor should you be unhappy that he doesn't seem to be dog aggressive.  You seem to have lucked out!   As to the puppy, most adult dogs, if sufficiently well socialized themselves, will tolerate the antics of young puppies without much complaint.  When puppies get older, in the four to five month age range, many adults will nicely tell the puppy that they have run out of "puppy license" and can no longer be obnoxious to adults;-)  I don't think it's ever a mistake to acclimate dogs nicely to the crate, or to be very positive in your handling of them as puppies.  Being "tough" on a dog is not necessary - what's necessary is communication, in ways that the dog can understand without being frightened or incurring pain.  If you want to stick to one method, and you like a positive approach, grab a copy of Pat Miller's "The Power of Positive Training" and try that with the new pup.

Thanks Spirit;

Yes I know pits are fighting dogs and not gaurd dogs, but all NORMAL dogs tend to be curious about their surroundings, strangers, etc, and I have never seen a Pit tolerate a strange dog snapping and barking around his head while mounted on his back, Then there is the avoidace/fear thing.. any normal dog would go toward a stranger at the gate instead of slinking away ( he is not like this when on walks) I suspect he may be autistic?...possibly from too much emphasis on form breeding (he has one blue eye and one green one, four white sox and a white tipped tail, head a little large for the breed, etc,)

I do love the fact that he is gentle, I just am concerned that he is too shy for the breed.

I have not heard of this book before,would you mind giving me a short example of its content?

Thanks for backing me up on the gentle method of crate training, but with three dogs on the place and my living alone and with a job, I am going to have to rush it a little.

Rushing, even a little, isn't a great idea.  Two new dogs at a time isn't the greatest idea, especially with one who is just a pup and one who might as well be.  But, it is what it is, so you simple have to work with the situation you've got.  Gently, consistently and firmly.  Please note that firmly doesn't mean unkindly.

And "tethered" until morning?  I personally won't tether or tie a dog unless I am able to supervise.  If all else fails, they can just chew right through the tether, but also they can get wrapped up in it, and often cause themselves injury.