Prong Collars

 I think for MOST it's probably a consistency issue and... honestly?  Lack of desire.  Who wants to spend hours a day/week training your dog to walk on a loose leash when you can put a prong on and Poof! Your dog just does it?

 I do occasionally use a prong collar on the Weims, not because it's easier, but for safety reasons.  When I'm walking anywhere high traffic, I cannot risk a cat/squirrel/bird/etc zooming by on the other side of a busy road... and me not be able to stop them.  Otherwise, I don't.

 But, to answer directly I think the people who said they've "tried everything" .... probably found something that works easier than if they took the time to +P train.  Our culture now expects instant results.

Maybe.  I worked my butt off with Thor and made NO progress.  Getting a prong just about killed me.  Using it on him was worse.  I didn't NEED quick results, I just wanted to not literally be dragged down the street on my bum.  So, for some of us, the answer is that we tried everything that we knew to try.  If I had known then how quick and easy it is to train a dog for off lead on a long line...and for polite reg. lead walking on a long line, I never would have suffered road rash on my rear!

glenmar

I worked my butt off with Thor and made NO progress.

 

Which is why I used the word "most", there are definitely exceptions. I have a friend I suggested a prong to, because I felt it was a more humane answer.  The dog was killing his windpipe and had no desire to eat treats when on a walk.  .... just wanted to PULL, he even pulled through a no-pull harness.

I didn't think you were lumping all prong users into the evil or lazy category!  Honest.

I think because I was so very unhappy about even buying the darned thing i'm still overly sensitive about having used one.  And maybe because of those feelings I tend to give others more leeway with training "tools" than I should.

In my experience, when folks generally say they have "tried everything", it means they've tried a little bit of everything and not enough of anything. That goes for halters, choke chains, harnesses, treats, spray bottles, whatever. Not that I condone all of those, but in all honesty when I hear that claim, the problem is generally the lack of time that people actually take to see what the effect can be, rather than the tool or method itself.

When I train my own dogs, 99% of training is done off-leash, so I'm not reliant upon anything, and I can't blame any tool for training mistakes. I'm not afraid if I don't have a certain collar/halter in my bag. Things don't break down if I'm missing it. If a collar breaks (and Gaci's did break one time) or I drop a leash, I don't panic.  My dogs are actually, if anything, much better behaved and controlled offleash than on. LOL. On occasion, I will use a halter with the girls if I am moving several dogs around out in public at dog events, only as a safety precaution - I can't even think of a situation in which I needed to use it for head control in the last several years, but it's there just in case someone else's dog causes a problem. One on one though they never really wear them.

Kash for instance has been on leash a grand total of once so far, and only because he was in a strange yard to go for a pee, and there are leash laws there. He hasn't actually been on leash outdoors yet, or indoors. I'll be starting to teach him about a leash here soon, but he is already learning to work around distractions, tug, fetch, sit, down, target, and come, without any "tools" except reinforcement and play. There will come a time when he will drag a leash as he gains confidence in his surroundings, because he won't have enough reinforcement history under a year of age to make me confident he'll recall in any situation. But he'll either dragging it or it's attached to my body, rarely in my hand and never used for training, but for safety if he goes too far.

But I don't believe any claim when I hear "the dog only responds to ________________", regardless of what that is.

With regard to prong collars, I'll say the same thing I said in the bark collar thread.  For me there is no "resorting to" this tool or that tool.  If a prong collar makes the most sense for the dog and the behavior, that is the first tool I turn to.  Same for the e-collar, or total freeshaping, or lure and C/T, etc.  I do not understand the mentality of having this hierarchy of tools and if one doesn't work, having to "resort to" the next one down.  If one is comfortable using a prong and thinks a prong will work, then why not use it first?  Likewise if one is not comfortable using a prong, then don't resort to it, don't use it at all.

Most problems I see with dogs that struggle loose leash walking (I won't say "heeling" because to me that refers to a more formal, competition style behavior) is that the dog is over stimulated.  It's not an issue of the wrong tool it's an issue of distance and/or distraction.  I do NOT like flooding as a method of training dogs.  Right now I have a 7 month old puppy going through that phase where he wants to bark at everything.  Rather than parade him around the block trying to redirect him with a prong collar or a treat once he starts sounding off, I observe what distances and distractions are too much for him, and work OUTside of that range for a while, backtracking on his focus work and self-control.  A lot of dogs especially younger dogs go through periods where they are still maturing in their head and may lack some self-confidence.  It's our job as owners NOT to push on our dogs too far.  If the dog reacts then WE have made the mistake, we've exposed the dog to too much distraction at too short a distance and need to back up.  When I'm training my dog to me a well balanced pet I can walk around the neighborhood and be neutral to other dogs and people, my goal is to never have to redirect my dog, but to train my dog up to that level where he is calm and confident in every situation.

I use prong collars every day for a variety of behaviors and reasons but I rarely take my dogs on leash walks.  I don't see a prong as a tool that trains loose leash walking so much as it manages it and usually prevents a dog from doing the alternative.  Pan just starting having a prong on for a few behaviors but leash walking isn't one of them.  I really like prong collars but it is very easy to misuse them because most people have no idea how to fit one or use one properly.

Kim_MacMillan

In my experience, when folks generally say they have "tried everything", it means they've tried a little bit of everything and not enough of anything. That goes for halters, choke chains, harnesses, treats, spray bottles, whatever. Not that I condone all of those, but in all honesty when I hear that claim, the problem is generally the lack of time that people actually take to see what the effect can be, rather than the tool or method itself.

When I train my own dogs, 99% of training is done off-leash, so I'm not reliant upon anything, and I can't blame any tool for training mistakes. I'm not afraid if I don't have a certain collar/halter in my bag. Things don't break down if I'm missing it. If a collar breaks (and Gaci's did break one time) or I drop a leash, I don't panic.  My dogs are actually, if anything, much better behaved and controlled offleash than on. LOL. On occasion, I will use a halter with the girls if I am moving several dogs around out in public at dog events, only as a safety precaution - I can't even think of a situation in which I needed to use it for head control in the last several years, but it's there just in case someone else's dog causes a problem. One on one though they never really wear them.

Kash for instance has been on leash a grand total of once so far, and only because he was in a strange yard to go for a pee, and there are leash laws there. He hasn't actually been on leash outdoors yet, or indoors. I'll be starting to teach him about a leash here soon, but he is already learning to work around distractions, tug, fetch, sit, down, target, and come, without any "tools" except reinforcement and play. There will come a time when he will drag a leash as he gains confidence in his surroundings, because he won't have enough reinforcement history under a year of age to make me confident he'll recall in any situation. But he'll either dragging it or it's attached to my body, rarely in my hand and never used for training, but for safety if he goes too far.

But I don't believe any claim when I hear "the dog only responds to ________________", regardless of what that is.

 

Thanks for the most salient post I've seen on this topic in a long time.

I recommended a prong collar for my neighbor and her large rotti. The dog is 10 now and really doesn't need it but it's more for hers/public peace of mind because the dog is dog aggressive and the lady is shorter then I am. (I'm 5'3) It shows that she can handle him if the dog does try to go after another dog.

I have one for Maze. I don't like it and it was a last resort. She would literally strangle herself with the leash by helicoptering herself as hard as possible at the end of the leash. Granted, it worked but I wasn't happy about it.

oranges81

I recommended a prong collar for my neighbor and her large rotti. The dog is 10 now and really doesn't need it but it's more for hers/public peace of mind because the dog is dog aggressive and the lady is shorter then I am. (I'm 5'3) It shows that she can handle him if the dog does try to go after another dog.

 

My concern with this is that some dogs are actually stimulated further by a prong collar.  Many people use them not so much to correct dogs but to increase the level of drive.  I imagine this could be true of a working breed like a Rott.  I understand the need for control but the owner should know that using a prong in this type of scenario is likely to amp up the dog even more.  It might give her more control, or it might make the dog even crazier around other dogs.  I don't really see it as the dog "blaming" the other dog for the corrections from the prong, but that to some of these large working bred dogs, a tightening prong or even pops or corrections are just "nags" to the dog.  Unless someone is prepared to give the dog the level of correction it needs to shut down, I don't recommend using a prong for control in a situation where it could over stimulate the dog.

Liesje

oranges81

I recommended a prong collar for my neighbor and her large rotti. The dog is 10 now and really doesn't need it but it's more for hers/public peace of mind because the dog is dog aggressive and the lady is shorter then I am. (I'm 5'3) It shows that she can handle him if the dog does try to go after another dog.

 

My concern with this is that some dogs are actually stimulated further by a prong collar.  Many people use them not so much to correct dogs but to increase the level of drive.  I imagine this could be true of a working breed like a Rott.  I understand the need for control but the owner should know that using a prong in this type of scenario is likely to amp up the dog even more.  It might give her more control, or it might make the dog even crazier around other dogs.  I don't really see it as the dog "blaming" the other dog for the corrections from the prong, but that to some of these large working bred dogs, a tightening prong or even pops or corrections are just "nags" to the dog.  Unless someone is prepared to give the dog the level of correction it needs to shut down, I don't recommend using a prong for control in a situation where it could over stimulate the dog.

Liesje is on-point here.  Especially for dog-aggression, prong collars without the direction of a trainer/behaviorist to evaluate the situation including the dog's reactivity to both the stimulus of the other dog(s), and the stimulus of corrections could escalate the dog's reaction.  I've trained with a very qualified aggression specialst for almost 10 years, so I know better than to think I can assess a dog-aggression situation with just one casual encounter and taking the owner's word for what happens.  The dog will tell the story of what's really going on a lot better than the handler.  Every time.  Interpreting that story is best handled by a very experienced handler of aggressive or reactive dogs, or deferred to an expert in dog behavior.

Also, with a tough, working type breed, there's always the chance of the dog "coming back up the leash" at the handler.  It's not the PRONG collar that would cause this, but I have seen it before with people who get dogs that are too much for them to handle and the dog is running the show.  Then one day the dog is full grown and the handler decides to get the dog under control so goes from no training, no relationship, and no mutual respect to slapping a prong on the dog.  The dog does not like this.

I agree with Paige, not something I would do or not do based on casual acquaintance or posts on a forum (like this one, hehe).  Again, I do not see this as an issue with the tool itself but the fact that people seem to turn to it or "resort" to it, if you will, in circumstances when a dog is showing a higher level of arousal, whether that is drive or aggression or reactivity.  Not really the best time to introduce such a tool without the proper experience.

Bumps doesn't get excited anymore.. Like I said, he's 10 now and not getting any younger. If my neighbor had raised Bumps, then he'd be a different dog. But she didn't. Bumps is a rescue who came from a drug house, who lived on the end of a chain. She can control him, but because of his size, she wasn't sure. She doubted herself. All I did was give her a sense of security. The prong he wears is to big for him so it doesn't give a correction, ever.

The issue with prongs as for many of the training tools is training the owner how to use it correctly. I've seen way too many prongs misused in the hands of some really nasty dog handlers/owners. It's not magic like some would hope, you have to teach the dog what it all means but more so teach yourself how to use it.

I've used a prong but not for pulling issues, more for awareness and redirection. From what I know now, I would have approached the situation completely differently and may have or not used a prong at all but at the time it worked well. Different trainers have their own opinion on the collar but I tend to look at the owner and dog as individuals and evaluate how willing they are to do things correctly, why things in the past failed, before recommending using a different type of tool.

I really dislike when A dog is surrendered to the shelter and it's wearing a prong as a permanent collar. Often when I have to remove the prong it's on way too tight or just disgusting. One dog I even had to clip the prong off with bolt cutters because of how rusted it was. The prong get such a bad name more from the people who misuse it then those who know how to use it.

Xebby

I really dislike when A dog is surrendered to the shelter and it's wearing a prong as a permanent collar. Often when I have to remove the prong it's on way too tight or just disgusting. One dog I even had to clip the prong off with bolt cutters because of how rusted it was.

 

Good grief, what is wrong with people!?  AWFUL!!! Such a case of misuse, but as others have said, flat collars can be abusive, too.  But, anyone giving up their dog (in 99% of the cases) are clearly not great people to begin with.  

The more I get to know people the more I love dogs.