"Emergency" recall

I'm a slacker.  Both my dogs will come.  But only when they feel like it.  So, no recall on either of them as far as I'm concerned.  My fault entirely.

Either a dog has a recall or doesn't.  There should be only one recall.  If the dog doesn't come regularly and consistently every time, he does not have a recall, emergency or otherwise. 

Do as I say, not as I do, kind of thing.  I know I should put recalls on both my dogs.  I don't even want to think what would happen if someone left a gate open. 

I have a decent recall with my guys. I don't have an emergency recall.

However, the way I understand "emergency" recalls is that they aren't actually *trained* the way a typical recall is. Emergency recalls are actually classically conditioned rather than operantly conditioned, on the premise the it becomes almost muscle memory in a way that a *trained* recall may fail. The thing is, you can pretty much never reach 100% with a recall because you can't proof for every variable that exists (well, you really can't reach 100% with anything when dealing with a thinking being), so in that rare case that it fails, it is meant to be a back-up that is totally differently learned (classical vs. operant) so that it has a chance of working when a normal recall doesn't.

 Piper is a hunting dog.  I use three different recalls-

Come round:  You're out too far, turn and come closer .

Come :  Back all the way to me.

Front:  Get your butt back here and sit in front of me.

I also use the Springer "Hup" command to sit her down at a distance.

With the snow this winter, I'll probably have to reteach most of these.  

Piper is a very soft dog, and tone of voice really effects speed of obedience.

dynamobt

If the dog doesn't come regularly and consistently every time, he does not have a recall, emergency or otherwise. 

 I don't think this is a classical vs. operant thing. It's still antecedent --> behavior --> consequence, emergency or not. I think the deal with it is that the regular recall is the one that you use every day, and the emergency recall is just that, you save it for emergencies. You don't run the risk of losing it as much, because you aren't going to give the command and not reinforce it.

griffinej5

You don't run the risk of losing it as much, because you aren't going to give the command and not reinforce it.

griffinej5

I don't think this is a classical vs. operant thing. It's still antecedent --> behavior --> consequence, emergency or not.

The way I learned it, it is very much classical conditioning over operant. When using the "emergency" cue, the dog is rewarded regardless of behaviour with extremely high-value treats. It starts by basically sitting with your dog and pairing the "word" (the CS) with the high-value reward (US), until the dog begins to form a conditioned response (your CR!) to the word. You never, ever ask the dog to physically move towards you, you are not rewarding a response to the cue. And when that time comes that you do have to use it, the dog doesn't think, it's so deeply ingrained classically that the dog just reacts and turns back into you. Pure classical conditioning.

I've seen it work in cases where operant ("trained";) recalls have failed.

Kim_MacMillan

The way I learned it, it is very much classical conditioning over operant. When using the "emergency" cue, the dog is rewarded regardless of behaviour with extremely high-value treats. It starts by basically sitting with your dog and pairing the "word" (the CS) with the high-value reward (US), until the dog begins to form a conditioned response (your CR!) to the word.

So, what I don't understand is why if this method works "better" than others, why bother attaching it to an "emergency" cue, instead of just your cue for COME?  In a real emergency, I doubt I will have the extremely high value treat that the dog had been conditioned to, so, what difference does it make to attach a meaning to it as "emergency"?  My command means COME, not "hey, think about if maybe you want to wander back here, please".

Well...I never said it worked better than others.

I don't know which works better, I can just say that it worked in situations when a regular recall failed. Why? I don't know. I suspect it has something to do with the basis of the emotional response attached to it, and how the brain physically interprets the differences. There is a huge difference between classical and operant and how memories are stored in the brain. Perhaps, like already stated, the "Come" cue becomes so poisoned because people don't reward it when they should, the dog has been successful at ignoring the cue, the cue has been associated with scary things (nail trims, baths, frustrated owner, etc), whereas you never use the emerg-recall in real-life walks unless it is an actual emergency (or you are actually classically conditioning in on your walk by being with your dog and pairing the word with the food), it has no chance to become poisoned. It wouldn't matter at that point if you have the high-value reward - it's an emergency situation, which is why it's used. You might not have that high-value reward, but hopefully you have something at your disposal to reward your dog with, even if it's just interaction with you or a favorite game or toy.

To go somewhere off-leash, with no type of reward at all at your disposal, is to me, poor training to be honest. Because you don't then have the opportunity to reward really good behaviour. I will never routinely call my dog away from something if I don't have something great to offer for coming away from it. It's a great way to teach your dog to ignore your requests. If I don't have some type of reward at my disposal, my dog doesn't get to run offleash, because I won't set my dog up to fail. Period. I may not even use that reward on a walk, but by golly I'll have it just in case it's necessary or I get a fabulous behaviour response that I would be crazy not to reward.

I have no personal connection to this. I didn't develop it. I have never tried it. Lies asked about it, and I am explaining one way that I know that folks develop an emerg-recall. And I have seen it work. If I can find a decent video of it, I will share it.  

I agree that it's usually introduced and used when the regular recall wasn't properly trained and reinforced.  I've never trained an emergency recall but understand how it could be useful to some people.  I've also seen an emergency recall be attempted but not trained properly and therefore, fail.  It's all about understanding how dogs learn. :)

Kim_MacMillan

I don't know which works better, I can just say that it worked in situations when a regular recall failed. Why? I don't know. I suspect it has something to do with the basis of the emotional response attached to it, and how the brain physically interprets the differences.

  Hmm, that makes sense to me.  I tend to believe the reason G's recall is so stellar is based on it being self-rewarding experience.  She LOVES to run fast-fast-fast. 

Kim_MacMillan

To go somewhere off-leash, with no type of reward at all at your disposal, is to me, poor training to be honest.

Then I also think about dog parks where the dogs are off-leash and you're not allowed to bring food into the park.  Your dog should come when called without your food reward.  Or else have a good stop/sit so you can go collect your dog with the leash.  I prefer a Come command when a fight starts nearby, or some dog looks cranky about a toy, rather than Stay while I come collect the dog.

Kim_MacMillan

it has no chance to become poisoned

 I always thought the purpose of the emergency recall was to get the dog back to you ASAP rather than at its own pace. fast vs slow in other words. Sometimes I want my dogs to come, but don't really care how fast. Other times I was them back the instant I open my mouth. That was my interpretation of it anyway. I do not have an emergency recall trained. A more important "emergency" training tool for me is a down or stop on recall. The dog is coming back or moving in some fashion (toward or away doesn't really matter) and there is some danger to the dog if it stays its course, I want a word that will stop the dog in its tracks. I have used both a down on recall and a stand on recall. Either one works but the down is better imo since it plants the dog on the ground vs letting the dog stay in a position that it might inch forward.

I had an experience with this with Neiko once when we were camping. He was off leash (as he usually mingles within our camp site without leaving), I left to go to the bathroom - which was across the street. As I came out, he was walking toward me, about to cross the road. I gave him the stand command and he stopped before he hit the street and stayed there until I released him.

This was a very difficult command to teach and we had to try lots of different things to get it. I haven't done it with my girls yet and really need to.

Jewlieee

A more important "emergency" training tool for me is a down or stop on recall.

That's a very good point.  All my dogs used to have a "sit" on recall because it's used so much in retriever training but my current dogs don't, except for Rex.  I need to get busy and work on this as it can be a lifesaver. 

For the GSDs, there's just one recall (their name), and they tend to respond depending on the level of "I mean it!" or sense of urgency in my voice, so we don't need different commands depending on the pace or the seriousness of the situation.  But I think I'm lucky in that regard, that overall the GSD is going to be much more naturally responsive than more independent breeds.  They do have a formal recall for competition, and I try not to use that in every day context because I don't care if the don't come and sit in front, as long as they come back close enough for me to grab the collar.  Coke on the other hand....he's four years old and I've yet to find something that's valuable enough to him to get him coming back!

I also train that platz (down) means platz whether you are in front, on the side, running away, running to, etc.  I've had situations where the recall would have caused more problems and insta-downing the dog made the most sense.  Platz is generally the very first command I teach and the most important to me.  Even in competition, the dogs naturally come and *want* to come back to me, so recalls are not a problem.  We have to be careful not to practice them too much or they anticipate the recall and do it before the command.  The platz has to be done so many times (long down, send out and down, down out of motion, dogs generally assume the down position while being critiqued, down before a track, down on articles, down setting up for the escape bite...) and has so many practical uses.