Managing Dog Reactivity

 I'm dealing with this. Check out my thread Dog parks and Socialization, Stardog posted a great link that I've started today.  My other advice.. relax and get your hands off the leash. If you're able, wrap it around your waist so you're not tempted to tense up and jerk on the leash.

 there will be much more informed responses than mine..........I'm not sure if you have done this or not but perhaps when you see other dogs you need to increase the distance between her and them to the point where she doesn't react.  Bugsy went through a phase of reactivity (one particular dog continually aggressed towards him and he finally said that is enough, at the same time his knee was blown out and we didn't know it so he clearly lost confidence) and the thing that has helped more than anything else is that finding the comfort distance and with each time of nothing happening we have been able to decrease the distance.  He is 100% fine now except if someone is running with their dog towards us (the aggressive dog was always running with their owner) but if I give him some space even that only brings on serious attention not any reactivity.

Also FWIW we just spent a few days with a dog that didn't want to share people/attention/toys/etc with Bugsy.  But by the second day she was better and by that night she had submitted to him.  It was fascinating to watch as he never responded to her antics.  At one point she laid down on top of a bunch of toys and he approached, she did her normal bark bark snap but he didn't back off.  He circled her and then approached again, she did the same but this time he gently nosed her and she left the toys and went to a different area of the room.  After that she wanted to be with him all the time and showed no guardiness with the toys.  i wonder if there is a dog you know that would be that calm around her when she acts 'spoiled'

most importantly give that pretty girl a belly rub for me 

oranges81

 I'm dealing with this. Check out my thread Dog parks and Socialization, Stardog posted a great link that I've started today.  My other advice.. relax and get your hands off the leash. If you're able, wrap it around your waist so you're not tempted to tense up and jerk on the leash.

Thank you for the link. I had to laugh at the advice you received to take your dog to a dog park. I had a similar experience, I had a trainer tell me "I was reading Veronica all wrong, she was perfectly friendly, I was the one who had a problem and if I was that nervous I could just drop Veronica off for play group and come back in an hour". Yep, of course, I'd be happy to drop my dog reactive PIT BULL off for play group, don't envision any issues with that.

I bookmarked the BAT site. I don't think it's necessarily all that different from what I've been doing. I'm also afraid if I wait for Veronica's reaction, I'll get the wrong one, LOL. You are right though, I know I have to relax my arms. I don't pull on the leash, but I do shorten it. My whole body changes. I go from relaxed to, "get ready to get Veronica's attention and she better not embarrass me"!!!! mode.

kpwlee

 there will be much more informed responses than mine..........I'm not sure if you have done this or not but perhaps when you see other dogs you need to increase the distance between her and them to the point where she doesn't react.  Bugsy went through a phase of reactivity (one particular dog continually aggressed towards him and he finally said that is enough, at the same time his knee was blown out and we didn't know it so he clearly lost confidence) and the thing that has helped more than anything else is that finding the comfort distance and with each time of nothing happening we have been able to decrease the distance.  He is 100% fine now except if someone is running with their dog towards us (the aggressive dog was always running with their owner) but if I give him some space even that only brings on serious attention not any reactivity.

Also FWIW we just spent a few days with a dog that didn't want to share people/attention/toys/etc with Bugsy.  But by the second day she was better and by that night she had submitted to him.  It was fascinating to watch as he never responded to her antics.  At one point she laid down on top of a bunch of toys and he approached, she did her normal bark bark snap but he didn't back off.  He circled her and then approached again, she did the same but this time he gently nosed her and she left the toys and went to a different area of the room.  After that she wanted to be with him all the time and showed no guardiness with the toys.  i wonder if there is a dog you know that would be that calm around her when she acts 'spoiled'

most importantly give that pretty girl a belly rub for me 

 Thank you for the response. I guess the distance thing is an issue on a couple of levels. I know I should be working sub threshold. Part of the problem is Veronica's threshold changes depending upon the dog and the situation. For example, if she is in the vet's office, she's nervous, she won't say boo to any dogs in there, she's too nervous.

And then I honestly think it depends on the other dog. If the other dog is calm, laid back, unassuming, unchallenging - Veronica is fine. If she picks up a certain energy level in the other dog - for example, the dog is orienting to and pulling towards her...the distance she can tolerate decreases...so sometimes it's hard because the distance she needs to be comfortable changes.

Other times in class, I know I probably push her over threshold because I am probably on the one hand impatient to make progress. But then again...she can do it. She can sit next to the dog tails touching, both dogs focusing on their owners...but she always looks for that opportunity to whip her head and get in one or 2 barks. Sometimes it isn't always her, sometimes it's the other dog, but then of course Veronica has to bark back.

The funny thing with Veronica and dogs is she really does to a certain extent want to interact with them. The 2 times we have been able to introduce her properly to 2 male dogs it has gone well. But with Veronica it takes time, a few long walks, then a few sniffs, then some limited on-leash interaction. And in the process the other person has to put up with Veronica acting like an ass, barking, jumping on the other dog's head (or at least trying to), and especially when she plays she can make some impressive growly type noises that can be off-putting. It;s allot to ask someone to put up with, LOL! She does have one male dog that she sees 2 - 3 times/week; that she does well with since she has gotten to know him. But her good relations with the boyfriend, don't seem to extend to other dogs. We've also never let them play off leash. We've toyed with the idea; but they play rough and we separate them and de-escalte if they get too worked up. We're both too afraid for either dog to have a bad experience to chance it when they enjoy each other's company so much as it is. And of couse, the last thing Veronica needs is a bad experience with a trusted dog.

 She's never going to be that dog that can just meet a dog and do a sniff. I would be satisfied with her being less interested in strange dogs.

BTW' she thanks you for the belly rub and reciprocates with a smootch full on the lips. (Keep your mouth shut tight).

The point of keeping a dog sub threshold is to prevent it from reacting in an aggressive manner to another dog.  As hard as it is, the best way to get beyond where you are, is to no longer put her in situations where she'll will encounter other dogs who push her past her threshold..  Set up only dog encounters that you control.  Every backslide has reinforced the behavior you're trying to change.  I know it's hard to stop training and random walks but it's all about controlling dog encounters until you know she's not going to react to another dog because you've changed her emotional response to the sight and proximity of other dogs. 

I think what happens to many, myself included, is we're impatient to get past a problem and get on with the fun stuff and we rush through the training.   Then the dog backslides and you're going backward again.  I learned that in retriever training.  Some of the drill work we did was beyond boring and the tempatation was to rush it.  When you really needed that conditioned response, it wasn't solidly there. 

 Basically, we're trying to tell dogs that we don't find reactivity acceptable or beneficial but I doubt dogs think of it that way.  For them, it's worked and until you teach them a different way to react, they'll go with the doggie method first.

It just clicked Jackie; I have had an epiphany! I just realized that the definition of sub threshold I was using in practice is not in fact sub threshold. I just realized (Duh!!) that I do push the envelope and bring Veronica within closer distances than I should because I am inpatient for progress.

 For example, there is a house we walk by with a large husky type dog on an open balcony. The dog barks it's head off. When Veronica is doing well, she can walk by "and not react"; when we had backslid, she has walked by and barked back and lunged. Here's what I just realized...

by "not react" I mean; not make a sound. I have taken that as a sign of success.

There have been times when other people, seeing Veronica and me with my clicker and treats; have complimented me on "how well she was doing" because she was not making a sound or to them visibly reacting.

What I just realized is that even though it isn't apparent to other people that she is reacting; I know she is still reacting. She is still becoming aroused, her breathing is faster, she is standing up straighter, her hackles are slightly raised, she is orienting to the other dog, pulling slightly in the direction of the other dog. What stops her from visibly reacting so that others could see is my waving treats under her nose, stuffing treats in her mouth  and telling her to watch me. It is not so much the "Look at that game" as it is the "Look at that game on speed".

Clearly all this time...I have not been sub threshold...because she has been reacting...and I knew these were the behaviors that were a problem but I wasn't connecting the fact that she was outwardly looking so well behaved to the fact that she was still over threshold.

I don't think stopping walks or classes would be good for her; because she is a dog that needs to stay socialized due to her tendency towards fear and agoraphobia (sometimes she doesn't want to leave the house, but then she has fun once she is out and doesn't want to go home...she is an odd duck). But I do think I can be much more aware of her threshold and do a much better job of working to keep her under threshold.

Even at class in practice I am guilty of..."wow she's doing really well, lets get a little closer. Good job, a little closer. Good job a little closer. A little closer, a little...bark...oops guess that was too close".

So I need to work on training myself.

Thanks guys!!

JackieG

The point of keeping a dog sub threshold is to prevent it from reacting in an aggressive manner to another dog.  As hard as it is, the best way to get beyond where you are, is to no longer put her in situations where she'll will encounter other dogs who push her past her threshold..  Set up only dog encounters that you control.  Every backslide has reinforced the behavior you're trying to change.  I know it's hard to stop training and random walks but it's all about controlling dog encounters until you know she's not going to react to another dog because you've changed her emotional response to the sight and proximity of other dogs. 

I think that there are many "yucky" things that dogs find tough, and often when we hit a training block we need to work the dog sub threshold. Labs respond well to this with Stand for Exam, and i watch lateral heeling positions, stays and some away work like the hawk with my poodles. In fact , with all of these things, i have never had a poor response by going well sub threshold, so why not start that way??

I had a tough time with my older dog who is now UD, but i was within a 1/2 trial of saying that's it, niether of us are enjoying it. She had bad noise phobias. I kept her under threshold for what seemed like 8 long months, out of it i got this absolute focus monster and  a very confident trialling companion. The principals are just the same. Relax, take your time, watch your dog know that it will work. Don't test. Make small increments. Get some help, don't do it alone. Find a good trainer to look after you!!

Veronica's Mom

It just clicked Jackie; I have had an epiphany! I just realized that the definition of sub threshold I was using in practice is not in fact sub threshold. I just realized (Duh!!) that I do push the envelope and bring Veronica within closer distances than I should because I am inpatient for progress.

 For example, there is a house we walk by with a large husky type dog on an open balcony. The dog barks it's head off. When Veronica is doing well, she can walk by "and not react"; when we had backslid, she has walked by and barked back and lunged. Here's what I just realized...

by "not react" I mean; not make a sound. I have taken that as a sign of success.

There have been times when other people, seeing Veronica and me with my clicker and treats; have complimented me on "how well she was doing" because she was not making a sound or to them visibly reacting.

What I just realized is that even though it isn't apparent to other people that she is reacting; I know she is still reacting. She is still becoming aroused, her breathing is faster, she is standing up straighter, her hackles are slightly raised, she is orienting to the other dog, pulling slightly in the direction of the other dog. What stops her from visibly reacting so that others could see is my waving treats under her nose, stuffing treats in her mouth  and telling her to watch me. It is not so much the "Look at that game" as it is the "Look at that game on speed".

Clearly all this time...I have not been sub threshold...because she has been reacting...and I knew these were the behaviors that were a problem but I wasn't connecting the fact that she was outwardly looking so well behaved to the fact that she was still over threshold.

I don't think stopping walks or classes would be good for her; because she is a dog that needs to stay socialized due to her tendency towards fear and agoraphobia (sometimes she doesn't want to leave the house, but then she has fun once she is out and doesn't want to go home...she is an odd duck). But I do think I can be much more aware of her threshold and do a much better job of working to keep her under threshold.

Even at class in practice I am guilty of..."wow she's doing really well, lets get a little closer. Good job, a little closer. Good job a little closer. A little closer, a little...bark...oops guess that was too close".

So I need to work on training myself.

Thanks guys!!

I love it when people have their own epiphanies:-)))  One thing to keep in mind as you progress is that if Veronica is intermittently reacting, then she is essentially being reinforced for it, because the other dog does go away eventually.  So, you can see that working sub-threshold is the single most important part of this training.  Also, you understand, so I don't have to tell you, but for the benefit of others who are reading this...there are many dogs that have breed predispositions either to reactivity or to dog aggression.  Never discount either of those as a precursor to the dog getting in to trouble.  Hard wiring matters.  You can mitigate it, but you can't eradicate it:-)  So, you may be able to have the dog working under a threshold that would rarely be met, and the dog may never react again in a negative way - however that does not imply a threshold that would never be met, so owners of DA and reactive dogs must live with the fact that they must always protect their dogs. 

I like the BAT training, but there's also Trish King's abandonment training, which works quite well for some dogs who are reactive on lead.  You need to have some skill to do it, and may have to work with a partner who is equally skilled, but I've seen it work well.

I still take abbie to classes but they are very controlled and sometimes even those classes are too much. I don't do random walks with her at all. Its just setting her up for failure.

What I have noticed, that makes the most impact, is have her interact with dogs right after she has worked. Working, doing something she really loves releases major endorphans and gives her a lot of confidence. Right after working, she is on an emotional high. Every interaction with dogs after that is positive. A dog could approach her on leash and she is relaxed, happy and waggy tailed. Sometimes she will evem play bow to the dog. I keep those interactions short and control them by walking us away with a "good girl!!!" To reinforce the positive association. If a dog walks close by, she won't react at all. When I first saw all this unfold (after she tried to herd some ducks in a river - which i hadn't intended) it was like a light bulb moment for myself and my trainer who happened to be with me. She was a totally different dog after working than she was before.

I  think people have given alot of great info. But i also want to know why you have ruled out dog aggression? I have owned many American pit Bulls and they are all different, but they have that hard wired into them. this doesn't mean that ALL of them are going to show it, but chances are. I think these are the most amazing dogs and i wouldn't want any other but. My dog "Nuckles" has alot of the same traits or flaws that you are talking about with Veronica. He too was with his litter mates and well socialized. But he'll never be unreactive to strange dogs.

Karla Welch

I  think people have given alot of great info. But i also want to know why you have ruled out dog aggression? I have owned many American pit Bulls and they are all different, but they have that hard wired into them. this doesn't mean that ALL of them are going to show it, but chances are. I think these are the most amazing dogs and i wouldn't want any other but. My dog "Nuckles" has alot of the same traits or flaws that you are talking about with Veronica. He too was with his litter mates and well socialized. But he'll never be unreactive to strange dogs.

When I say I have ruled out dog aggression; I mean I know my dog well enough through 4 1/2 years of observation and working with @ 8 trainers and 1 "behaviorist" (after the fact reviewing her credentials I would call her a VERY qualified trainer, but not a behaviorist in terms of the formal education piece) that I feel 100% confident that Veronica's goal is not to reach the other dog and bite/attack/kill it - which is what genuine full on DA means to me.She has had ample opportunity to do so, and has never so much as scratched another dog with her tooth.

 Why you ask would a pit bull be given ample opportunity? Because there was a blurry piece when it first started and no one could figure out what it was. It was the transition from adolescence to adulthood; and there was never a triggering event like a scrape with another dog where someone got a cut or a scrap or that pivotal moment when you say "OK; interactions with other dogs over now".

Instead there was (and still is) an array of contradictory behaviors; such that 8 trainers and 1 behaviorist haven't been able to agree with each other. The most pit bull savvy dog trainer said "She's DA; keep her away from other dogs" - but she only saw her once and I think her opinion came more from considering her breed then actually thoroughly evaluating the dog. The behaviorist (who trained the pit bull savvy trainer) said she was an alpha female and while not DA, she did not like other dogs and wanted to control their behavior. I agree with her that she wants to control the space where other dogs are concerned. I disagree with the alpha female piece - unless alpha females are insecure, fearful dogs. I think Veronica wants to be dominant with other dogs; but she clearly isn't; and I think that conflict creates allot of tension.

3 trainers said she was dog friendly and I was the one who had a problem and was creating a self fulfilling prophecy becasue she was a pit bull. Ironically don't ask me why, she had some interactions with other dogs with them and did really well; but it didn't last. I wouldn't say I'm a nervous wreck; I don't think Veronica will hurt another dog...but I don't believe in taking chances either. Veronica did a play group with these trainers. Her and 3 other dogs. 2 big dogs and 1 little dog. The trainers said Veronica was "fine". I thought she was obnoxious and pushy. Then it was just the little dog a few times and the owner was like "Oh it's fine! He plays with big dogs all the time". Trainer thought Veronica was wonderful. Again; I thought she was rude and pushy. I posted the video on a pit bull forum and most agreed with me that Veronica was inappropriate...but still, she did not make any attempt to hurt the little dog. She would corner it and poke it with her nose or try to smoosh it into the ground...but when the little dog had had it and barked at her and chased her off she ran.

Here are the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMrfuByhus0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3foxiRDo_G4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHi_yZD5rtw

The remaining trainers consider her moderately reactive; but no significant threat to another dog. The other trainers were actually Rally and agility trainers and they were concerned with her Rally and agility performance; but thoroughly comfortable with her in class and encouraging me to trial. They gave me the impression that I was more concerned about her reactivity than they were.

Veronica doesn't want to attack dogs; she wants to run her mouth. We have joked that she couldn't possibly bite another dog becasue she couldn't shut her mouth long enough to do so.

In all seriousness; I understand that reactivity is arousal and that arousal could flip into aggression at any minute and I don't take chances. Veronica isn't even allowed to play with her doggy boyfriend off leash. We talked about it; and they would probably be fine and it's not like we wouldn't be there moderating...but still; they enjoy each other so much and she has such limited contact with other dogs; I would hate to see it go bad. So if Veronica is DA...she is very, very bad at it. - imo

Jewlieee

I'm really impressed with the progress you've made and the techniques you have used. I'm doing all the same things with abbie. While reading through the thread though, I was actually surprised that you are doing training classes with dogs in such close proximity and random walks where you can't control what happens with other dogs, especially an off leash dog. Next time you walk pay real close attention to her behavior. Is she relaxed? Like really relaxed?

I still take abbie to classes but they are very controlled and sometimes even those classes are too much. I don't do random walks with her at all. Its just setting her up for failure.

What I have noticed, that makes the most impact, is have her interact with dogs right after she has worked. Working, doing something she really loves releases major endorphans and gives her a lot of confidence. Right after working, she is on an emotional high. Every interaction with dogs after that is positive. A dog could approach her on leash and she is relaxed, happy and waggy tailed. Sometimes she will evem play bow to the dog. I keep those interactions short and control them by walking us away with a "good girl!!!" To reinforce the positive association. If a dog walks close by, she won't react at all. When I first saw all this unfold (after she tried to herd some ducks in a river - which i hadn't intended) it was like a light bulb moment for myself and my trainer who happened to be with me. She was a totally different dog after working than she was before.

Thank you for the encouragement! To answer your question; weighing the issue of Veronica's reactivity and her fear issues and the need to keep her well socialized - I guess if I had to choose I'd lose the fear and keep the reactivity (of course I'd like to lose both of them, thank you). So the benefits of class and walks (especially since she gets to walk with her boyfriend now) outweigh keeping her more isolated even if we never make more progress on her reactivity. Of course, I would like to continue to make progress on her reactivity...so it's a balancing act.

I think I can pay more attention to threshold both on walks and in class; I don't have to push the envelope: I can go slower. Plenty of times on walks I could better avoid another dog; but steer straight towards it because "it's a practice opportunity". Veronica really won't do anything noticeably inappropriate to the other person (and as I said in my earlier post; she's not any sort of threat). Generally the worst case scenario will be the other dog will invade Veronica's space, or bark at or show reactive behavior...and then Veronica will give it back...in spades. (I guess I'm less embarrassed about that becasue she didn't start it). Or if she does start it it's a few barks...which yes I know, reinforcing the offending behavior and not good...but the lesser of 2 evils if the other choice is keep her home (since she can be a touch agoraphobic to begin with; doesn't want to leave the house, but then when you get her out - has a good time and doesn't want to come home - she's an odd, odd dog)

To answer you other question...she's completely relaxed until she notices another dog; then she orients to it and starts getting more and more aroused the closer we get. Focused on it, tail up, pulling slightly forward in it's direction, at alert, hackles mildly raised, I'm sure if I looked in her eyes her pupils would be dilated. It doesn't matter whether or not she has just worked, but what matters is the number of dogs. If there are allot of them out in the summer months or we take her to one of the town festivals; she doesn't get as aroused. But it seems to be over saturation; she's like "Oh look A DOG! look, ANOTHER DOG! And another one, and another, and...oh CRAP I give up, the place is crawling in dogs"!!!!

FYI: In the videos; I'm filming. The gal in sandals is the trainer.

I think you are doing great and I hope that we get to the point you are at. I don't know how to get you further but please keep us up to date. I am interested to see if you progress since we also have those - do really great and back slide moments. I kind of have it in my mind that I will forever have to manage and be alert to our surroundings because its the times that I'm not alert that we have backslides. Since I'm only human and can't be perfect all the time, that's bound to continue, you know?