Coke - new anxiety!

I would suggest Tellington Touch if you are going to put your hands on your dog.  SInce it is precise and prescribed, it will focus you which will help the dog...I also use these products and find them VERY effective.

http://www.anaturalconnection.com/

 I think Krissim Klaw's suggestion is the best long term solution.  While I'm not big on Flower Essence therapy, and some others, this page offers a good overview: http://www.ygrr.org/doginfo/behavior-phobia.html

Kim_MacMillan

For those who are reading and are interested in the *comforting* fear myth, I do recommend folks read this link in order to learn more about operant vs. classical conditioning, and why it is that you really can't *reinforce fear*.
http://www.fearfuldogs.com/fearstudy.html

I really appreciated reading this. I've always worried that any attempts on my part to calm my dogs down might make things worse. I'm happy to know that it probably won't and might actually help.

I don't have any suggestions on how to deal with the noise phobias. Neither of my dogs get upset by thunder or fireworks. Buffy will bark back at a loud thunder clap but that's about it . Sassy completely panics with high-pitched sounds though. When our smoke detectors went on the fritz last year, I was afraid she'd hurt herself. She doesn't want to be near us for comfort, she wants to run away. I almost locked her in my car while I was trying to get the stupid things to shut up. The only good thing is that she calms down pretty fast once the noise stops.

Kim_MacMillan

For those who are reading and are interested in the *comforting* fear myth, I do recommend folks read this link in order to learn more about operant vs. classical conditioning, and why it is that you really can't *reinforce fear*.

miranadobe

What does he find most rewarding when he's come through a major training stressor?

FOOD!

It's not that he's so stressed I can't redirect him.  If I bring out treats he snaps out of it, he may or may not go back to pacing and panting for a while after getting treats.  Generally it takes about an hour from the time he hears whatever it is he hears until he settles down and is back to normal.

 The point is that you are not comforting the dog. There's a big difference between comforting and practicing relaxation techniques in the face of a stressor.

Krissim Klaw

But you can reinforce the reaction to the fear.  When Kirby was flinging himself at the end of his leash snarling at the sight of another dog focusing on comforting him seemed far from the best solution despite the fact his reaction was all fear related.  If aggressive/reactive fear driven behaviors can be reinforced than I believe that trembling, pacing, whining, and other fear based behaviors can equally be reinforced.

While there is a vast difference between fear aggression and sound phobias, which is what we are discussing here, petting your dog when your dog has had an adrenaline dump and is beyond its threshold into aggression, is not going to make your dog more fearful, or make your dog's response any worse than it is already. I completely agree that comforting your dog at that time is not the best solution, because chances are at that point it won't do much of anything because at that point your dog has lost the ability of any form of rational thought and is reacting. A dog at that point cannot think, learning of ANY form is minimal to nil. But the point is that it's not going to make your dog's response any worse the next time.

Fear aggression is not related to sound phobias, but since it was brought up, you can address the underlying emotion - fear - in the same way regardless of what the fear is of. IF the dog is in fact as fearful as you think it is (sometimes people assume fear where fear is not present, simply because the dog is reacting than it *must* be from fear, when in fact not all leash reactivity is fear based. In some ways using the *fear* description is almost the go-to choice for bad manners and non-fear related aggression, simple because it's easier to say it's fear-related than to say it's caused by something else entirely), then petting the dog will not make the situation any worse.

Counterconditioning, by its own definition, is a process used in behaviour modification in which you reward your dog with food (generally) in the presence of a fearful stimulus (thunder, other dog, garbage can, whatever), regardless of the dog's behaviour. And what happens is that in time the fear-based behavioural responses decrease.

So, reinforcing the dog, regardless of the behaviour, lessens the reactive behaviour. Sounds backwards, but Pavlov trumps Skinner every time. The reinforcement provided changes the dog's emotional response. Change the emotion, the coinciding behaviour changes all on its own. Simple, although not always easy.

Nowadays we try to do desensitization along with counterconditioning - that is, setting the dog up to reward it before it reacts, however it does still work in the older style of rewarding regardless of behaviour output. And an even newer school of thought that I like comes from the Control Unleashed exercises, in which you are using operant conditioning to classically condition responses. Use both at the same time to achieve the outcome you desire.  It's fabulous, and a definite help to trainers worldwide who are dealing with reactive behaviours.

I think the difference between reinforcing the fear and help soothe it is more our reaction to it than how we treat the dog, if that makes sense?  For example, if some fireworks go off, I don't rush up to go and go, "OH Coke! OMG you POOR thing you must be TERRIFIED!" and make a big spectacle of it.  I'm more like "Fireworks...meh."  Luckily he's not so bad, when I get food out he snaps out of it as long as he's getting treats (and he will do the little obedience he knows, he's not "shut down" or showing stress at all once I redirect him), but that doesn't really help prevent it and usually he goes back to the anxious behavior once the treats are gone.

I haven't read the whole thread, but the DAP spray works GREAT for Jewel's fear of thunderstorms, fireworks, and gunshots. I was ridiculously skeptical, but crating her with that on a blanket? Makes her go to sleep, no matter what. Crating alone just increases the stressy behavior.

Kim_MacMillan

While there is a vast difference between fear aggression and sound phobias, which is what we are discussing here, petting your dog when your dog has had an adrenaline dump and is beyond its threshold into aggression, is not going to make your dog more fearful, or make your dog's response any worse than it is already. I completely agree that comforting your dog at that time is not the best solution, because chances are at that point it won't do much of anything because at that point your dog has lost the ability of any form of rational thought and is reacting. A dog at that point cannot think, learning of ANY form is minimal to nil. But the point is that it's not going to make your dog's response any worse the next time.

Fear aggression is not related to sound phobias, but since it was brought up, you can address the underlying emotion - fear - in the same way regardless of what the fear is of. IF the dog is in fact as fearful as you think it is (sometimes people assume fear where fear is not present, simply because the dog is reacting than it *must* be from fear, when in fact not all leash reactivity is fear based. In some ways using the *fear* description is almost the go-to choice for bad manners and non-fear related aggression, simple because it's easier to say it's fear-related than to say it's caused by something else entirely), then petting the dog will not make the situation any worse.

Counterconditioning, by its own definition, is a process used in behaviour modification in which you reward your dog with food (generally) in the presence of a fearful stimulus (thunder, other dog, garbage can, whatever), regardless of the dog's behaviour. And what happens is that in time the fear-based behavioural responses decrease.

So, reinforcing the dog, regardless of the behaviour, lessens the reactive behaviour. Sounds backwards, but Pavlov trumps Skinner every time. The reinforcement provided changes the dog's emotional response. Change the emotion, the coinciding behaviour changes all on its own. Simple, although not always easy.

Nowadays we try to do desensitization along with counterconditioning - that is, setting the dog up to reward it before it reacts, however it does still work in the older style of rewarding regardless of behaviour output. And an even newer school of thought that I like comes from the Control Unleashed exercises, in which you are using operant conditioning to classically condition responses. Use both at the same time to achieve the outcome you desire.  It's fabulous, and a definite help to trainers worldwide who are dealing with reactive behaviours.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

 I should note that I have nothing against trying touch relaxation methods and the like, but I still disagree that fear based responses can't be made worse depending on their owners reaction.  Since Liesje mentioned Coke can still take treats during these episodes, than that to me sounds like he has plenty focus and reasoning left to associate things if he gets the wrong reinforcements.  (Not saying Liesje is doing this, I just felt I wanted to counter the article and the statement, have no fear nothing you do with your dog comfort wise is going to make anything worse.)  I still disagree with that.  As others have mentioned I think how one responses is important.

Krissim Klaw

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Yep, we are.

My academic background in neuroscience and the biology of fear allows me, admittedly, to see emotions in a slightly different light and sometimes it is hard to expain just why you absolutely cannot reinforce fear through comfort. Beyond that, I have seen firsthand in two of my own dogs, and many of my client's dogs, how proper touch, tone, and reassurance can help dogs who are experienced fear. Comfort is not a rehabilitation technique, it's more management, but it does often help. Not all situations call for the same thing, no, and some instances peopel and dogs may benefit from the *jolly routine* in pretending nothing is wrong, but there are many dogs out there for whom ignoring the behaviour only makes the dog much, much worse when simple understanding and comfort works wonders. I don't need to argue it any further, I see it with my own eyes all the time and am comfortable in stating my position.

Lies - you mentioned that Coke will take treats and follow through with some of his obedience stuff. That's great to hear. Would he be able to be kept busy with a puzzle toy for that half-hour period or so to keep him otherwise occupied? Or would he relax and settle long enough for TTouch?

Kim_MacMillan

For those who are reading and are interested in the *comforting* fear myth, I do recommend folks read this link in order to learn more about operant vs. classical conditioning, and why it is that you really can't *reinforce fear*.
http://www.fearfuldogs.com/fearstudy.html

I say that because I choose not to ignore the behaviour when my dogs are afraid. Based on my readings in fear in animals, and from my educational background, I think that when an animal feels afraid, the last thing the animal is expecting is that their owner will ignore their neediest time. An animal does not *want* to feel afraid, and most animals actually are more calm when their owners can acknowledge that they are feeling afraid rather than ignoring them. That doesn't mean coddling them and making baby noises in a frantic manner, but massage, rubbing, talking in a soothing tone, will not *make your dog more afraid*. You can't reinforce an emotion. At its best, it will have a comforting effect, at its worst it will not do anything. It's really not going to harm your dog or *make it more nervous next time*. Now, if you too are nervous of the same thing, that can affect your dog because you dog will pick up on your own pheromones and stress scent. But if you are not nervous, then it's not going to hurt your dog to comfort it.

I remember that Anne posted the same link before. I would agree that petting your dog while he is afraid will not make him more afraid, your will not increase the behavior BUT will make the dog to keep the same level of fear for longer periods of time and more often.

Is not that the last thing the animal is expecting is that their owner will ignore their neediest time, the point of ignoring is because the dog will look at the owner to see how the owner is reacting to the same sound, to check if indeed there is something to be afraid of. The dog will check with the different house members for feed back towards the situation.

Now, something extremely important to consider is that petting is not the same as massaging. It is very important to consider the way your are approaching the dog while he is afraid.

If you go an pet your dog while feeling sorry for him THAT'S when you are hurting him more than helping. If you approach your dog calmly, sit down next to him without feeling sorry or sad and you start massaging your dog (not petting) THEN you can make the difference, no need to say anything to him, no baby talk, etc.

Think about it like when you go to a regular spa for a massage, coming from an stressful day from work. The only thing you want to do is relax, if the masseuse comes to you as stressed as you are and starts massaging you while she is talking to you non stop i really dont think you will get out of there relaxed whatsoever. The massage will suck because the masseuse is also stressed out and you will feel it.

Now if you have the same spa experience the way it should be then you would have a masseuse that is relaxed, transmitting that peace to you, helping you to relax, to forget that you had an stressful day at work, with candles and a nice smell and music around you then that will be different.

I would recommend Nicole Wilde's book about energy healing for dogs:

http://www.phantompub.com/EnergyHealing.htm

Talks about aroma therapy, music therapy and tells you how to practicaly have your dog sleeping nex to you with the massage. She talks about "energy" but i think is more about the relaxed attitude you have when you start the massage and the heat you create when you rub your hands together.

Is the attitude you have towards the dog when he is in fear what makes the difference 

espencer

Kim_MacMillan

For those who are reading and are interested in the *comforting* fear myth, I do recommend folks read this link in order to learn more about operant vs. classical conditioning, and why it is that you really can't *reinforce fear*.
http://www.fearfuldogs.com/fearstudy.html

I say that because I choose not to ignore the behaviour when my dogs are afraid. Based on my readings in fear in animals, and from my educational background, I think that when an animal feels afraid, the last thing the animal is expecting is that their owner will ignore their neediest time. An animal does not *want* to feel afraid, and most animals actually are more calm when their owners can acknowledge that they are feeling afraid rather than ignoring them. That doesn't mean coddling them and making baby noises in a frantic manner, but massage, rubbing, talking in a soothing tone, will not *make your dog more afraid*. You can't reinforce an emotion. At its best, it will have a comforting effect, at its worst it will not do anything. It's really not going to harm your dog or *make it more nervous next time*. Now, if you too are nervous of the same thing, that can affect your dog because you dog will pick up on your own pheromones and stress scent. But if you are not nervous, then it's not going to hurt your dog to comfort it.

I remember that Anne posted the same link before. I would agree that petting your dog while he is afraid will not make him more afraid, your will not increase the behavior BUT will make the dog to keep the same level of fear for longer periods of time and more often.

Is not that the last thing the animal is expecting is that their owner will ignore their neediest time, the point of ignoring is because the dog will look at the owner to see how the owner is reacting to the same sound, to check if indeed there is something to be afraid of. The dog will check with the different house members for feed back towards the situation.

Now, something extremely important to consider is that petting is not the same as massaging. It is very important to consider the way your are approaching the dog while he is afraid.

If you go an pet your dog while feeling sorry for him THAT'S when you are hurting him more than helping. If you approach your dog calmly, sit down next to him without feeling sorry or sad and you start massaging your dog (not petting) THEN you can make the difference, no need to say anything to him, no baby talk, etc.

Think about it like when you go to a regular spa for a massage, coming from an stressful day from work. The only thing you want to do is relax, if the masseuse comes to you as stressed as you are and starts massaging you while she is talking to you non stop i really dont think you will get out of there relaxed whatsoever. The massage will suck because the masseuse is also stressed out and you will feel it.

Now if you have the same spa experience the way it should be then you would have a masseuse that is relaxed, transmitting that peace to you, helping you to relax, to forget that you had an stressful day at work, with candles and a nice smell and music around you then that will be different.

I would recommend Nicole Wilde's book about energy healing for dogs:

http://www.phantompub.com/EnergyHealing.htm

Talks about aroma therapy, music therapy and tells you how to practicaly have your dog sleeping nex to you with the massage. She talks about "energy" but i think is more about the relaxed attitude you have when you start the massage and the heat you create when you rub your hands together.

Is the attitude you have towards the dog when he is in fear what makes the difference 

 

 

I do think the handler's attitude is important and your analogy of the masseuse talking a mile a minute resonated with me (I like massages, hate  massage therapists who approach me as if they had a bad case of ADHD).  I also think that there are times, as with humans, where it makes little difference how you approach, because the fear response is so ingrained.  (Which, of course, doesn't mean you give up trying to find help for the situation).  I wonder if people have any experience with the "Through a Dog's Ear" CD.  Some of my trainer pals are trying it, and I have a copy but haven't done so yet (I am always behind - my grandma had a sign in her kitchen - "The faster I go, the behinder I get." - story of my life, too, LOL)

I wonder if dogs have different responses they prefer if they are afraid? I sure do. I would HATE it if anyone, even a loved one...touched me in ANY way when I am in a fearful state. I do not want your hands on me...I want you to TALK to me and help me rationalize or even MINIMIZE what I am so afraid of. I much prefer to "talk thru" fear than be physically comforted.

If a dog is a confident animal otherwise...maybe they want you to take an active role...walk the perimeter of the territory with them...do commands, etc.

If a dog is not confident they may need physical comfort.

I don't know...what's everyone think? I know not every dog, or every breed of dog I owned even LIKED being touched much....when they were calm and happy. Akitas for example never much like to be touching anyone when they are asleep or relaxed, they like a bubble of space. They like to be free to manuever when aroused to fear or anger as well...a more "feral" response and less a "puppy like" response?

In general, Coke is more of a cuddler, but I think it's a good question, Gina.  Probably gets at my original concern since I'm more like you, NOT touchy feely, and I've basically been ignoring Coke during these "episodes" unless he comes and asks for comfort.  Like if Phil yells at a football game on TV, Coke will come and sit on his lap and then Phil pets him and tells him it's OK.

There's a lot of good ideas here, I think it's a good discussion and doesn't necessarily have to stick to Coke and his problem.