Putting our money where our mouth is

Excellent thread idea. I don't know if I can help in this scenario. Shadow will track a scent on concrete in the rain (I have seen him do it.) I mean, laser-sharp focus. How does one help a dog that doesn't do that? Is the dog finding the tracking of the scent or finding the source of the scent a rewarding activity? Or an enjoyable activity? Or is the anxiety a little too strong to see it through to the eventual release of anxiety when the source is found?

I'm not quite sure what is meant by "anxiety method" but I'm guessing the dog was taught to track using some form of pressure/compulsion/escape?  If so, I think it makes sense the dog gets anxious at corners, since the dog understands that getting off track = punishment and at the corner there is going to be some uncertainty of where the track goes.

I don't like training to track using compulsion.  I will use it for working on very specific aspects once the dog has learned all the pieces of tracking and is doing trial type tracks, but I do all foundation with positive methods (typically food on the track and either a food pile or toy reward/game at the end depending on the dog, also I train article indication off the track again using freeshaping and food rewards).  Tracking is natural for any dog, all dogs scent better than humans, it's just a matter of training the dog to track in the fashion that you want with the attitude you want.  I want a willing tracker that is focused and maintains speed (I'm not real picky on THE speed, but the dog has to be consistent, not get more hectic toward the end or fizzle out).  I want the dog to show calm focus and control.  Nose must be on the ground, no air scenting, corners very precise (no slowing down or pausing to check, just turning the corner maintaining the speed and rhythm).  I do the foundation work with food on the track but the dog's temperament and drive will determine what food, how much or how little, how random, how soon it's faded, etc.

Since I do SchH and basically footstep track, I teach corners just like other parts of the track (with food), except I might leave more scent and/or more food on corners longer than straight legs or easier sections of the track.  It takes more practice to fade the scent and food off the corners.  Our corners are very sharp 90 degree corners, at least that is how I train them mostly (my corners are like three steps, not an arc).  I like the dog to stay directly on the track than have to check off the side in order to make a corner.

The handler might have to work corners off tracks for a while, if that makes sense.  The dog basically needs to re-learn them and associate corners with good rather than get anxious and hectic because losing the track for a split second = bad. Sort of like when we have a dog that is trained to indicate articles with compulsion and then shows too much avoidance on the track, we re-train the indication off the track and don't put articles back on or do article training tracks until the indication behavior is exactly how we want, consistently.

No matter the dog or the method I *never* allow circling.  Again maybe that is a SchH thing, but if I think the dog might circle, I shorten the line or even stand directly behind the dog or on his right to "steer" him gently and prevent circling.  To me, while tracking the *only* option is moving forward.  If there is a big problem and/or the dog is really stressed, I will down/platz the dog, figure out what is going on, maybe give the dog a breather, toss a handful of food on the track right there, and re-start. 

 The pressure is the absence of the owner. Generally it sort of works ok. But what happens is the very first lesson is that the handler goes away for about 10 minutes and the dog goes to find the owner. The hassle is that many gun dogs don't track. They air scent, quarter or fringe dwell naturally. Very few dogs outside of the Shutzhund group track in the literal sense naturally. Many trail , many fringe dwell.

Owner uses *mostly* traditional R+ methods.  Anxiety method. 

I guess I would want to know which non-positive methods are being employed, and exactly what "anxiety method" means in your context.  Any time I see slow performance in any discipline, it always makes me think that the dog has some kind of understanding that the consequences of his actions can be bad as well as good, and proceeds in a manner so as to avoid the possibility of being wrong.  It robs some dogs of confidence in the handler, and it makes them not enjoy the "game."   I would not be above re-training the dog using non-anxiety methods.  If the dog is using displacement behaviors, chances are she is trying to deal with stress without getting herself in trouble.  Problem is, the displacement behaviors are often what gets a tracking dog in trouble...

Hmm, OK, I guess I don't understand that method of training.  I want my dog to track a certain way but I can't teach that if I'm not there handling the dog.  Also having GSDs, that would *never* work, lol.  The dog would be so anxious and hectic, it would probably be the exact opposite picture of what I'm looking for when my dog tracks.  But if that's what the handler wants....

I don't think I'll have much helpful info here, as I have no experience in tracking, but just wanted to add to Ron's post that I think it's an interesting thread and I'll be stopping in to read up on things! Now, if it wasn't tracking-related, I'd be more adept at discussing behaviour issues.

 IMHO the anxiety method appears either as R- or a kind of non contingent P- in may dogs. :(

Liesje

Hmm, OK, I guess I don't understand that method of training.  I want my dog to track a certain way but I can't teach that if I'm not there handling the dog.  Also having GSDs, that would *never* work, lol.  The dog would be so anxious and hectic, it would probably be the exact opposite picture of what I'm looking for when my dog tracks.  But if that's what the handler wants....

Actually, you have very accurately described what happens, and it is often used here on GSDs. The fenzy is ofen mistaken as motivation. Some seem to think that the more anxious the dog the better. Not my chosen method at all.

Yikes, that sounds like a nightmare!  I know what you mean though, that happens *all* the time with Schutzhund or even just the breed in general - people assume that energy, hyperactivity, even neurotic frenzy = drive.  Erm, no!  Honestly I often use tracking as a "barometer" of sorts for these very traits.  There's something so primal and instinctive about it that it often gives me a more clear picture about the dog's mental state when working.  Like I said, I like power, confidence, and focus but with that must come drive (not the anxious behaviors often mistaken for drive), consistency and control.

We actually do not allow the dog to track if they are showing an anxiety or acting frenzied or hectic.  For dogs like Nikon whose tracks have to age, we have them out and do "long downs" in front of the track's tail.  They know what is coming b/c of the equipment, the flag, the location....but they must down and wait while we talk or do something with another dog.  Nikon is usually very steady on a track but for some reason last week Wed. he was getting more hectic, casting side to side.  I actually stopped him, let him calm down, then re-started the track as if the "bad" part never happened.

spiritdogs

Any time I see slow performance in any discipline, it always makes me think that the dog has some kind of understanding that the consequences of his actions can be bad as well as good, and proceeds in a manner so as to avoid the possibility of being wrong.  It robs some dogs of confidence in the handler, and it makes them not enjoy the "game."   I would not be above re-training the dog using non-anxiety methods. 

HI 

Well you got it! I did retrain using non anxiety methods. While tracking is quite primal, the laws of learning don't suddenly go west.

 We did heavily food laden tracks for ages. We set up corner after corner and soothed her and fed her around them.I guess you call it CC, but a few on this forum would tell us that this process doesn't work :)

One day i set up for a training session. This dog has a much younger sister that is very talented in tracking, and i set up a track for this dog. The handler got the older dog out and i got the shock of my life, this dog was just so having fun and so good. The good news is that she passed with very good grades track after track. The sad news is that she is very ill :(((

HI Liesje 

I work quite closely with a trainer that is very comfortabe with the traditional tracking breeds and doing Shutzhund. We have some different emphasis becuase i am more all breeds and really train dogs for close trailing. My poodles track within a foot or so but not in the footsteps. This hardly varies with conditions. I alsoteach and handle a lot of  gun dogs whose natural pattern we adapt some what.Quatering etc is very very inefficient and hard for the human to read and respond to. It isn't neccessary and can be changed very easily. We expect them to over shoot corners and handle for this.

What we do say is that we are doing the same painting but using different colours. :) I think both you and me are talking the same language and ideals too.

Our techniques are quite similar , except my rewards are in the trail, hers are in the footsteps. I love to see a clear Lost Track Indication eaerly on and reward heavily for it. I provoke search behaviours from gun dogs very early on (by taking the food out of a sudden change of direction ) as this is the great get out of jail free card in tough terrain. She might not do that.

We both have the same ideal, a calm focused steady dog that can track for a long time and  is very driven in the sense that you use. Drive is the stuff where if you placed an obstacle in the way of the dog the dog finds a way around it and keeps going. 

 Generally  i like to hot start the dogs. It is good practice for SAR type work. They learn to get out of the car, a quick acclimaitse and then bang straight in to it. Some dogs need more focusing than that . One young tear away Irish Water Spaniel needs a drive switch into pack drive, (doig some obedience) and then makes a switch about 50 meters down the track when he has worked out what he is doing.

Most of our dogs are fast by any standards. I would do things very different if i was doing Shuzhund, but we do like fast accurate work. I think we hold some local time records but time is not of any consequence supposedly. We have  had a Lab do a four corner track, indicate the two articles and go up hill of 800 meters in five minutes. My old Lab at 13 1/2 did his Tch track ( 6 corners 2 acutes through bush 0 in 10 minutes which even to this day was the best moments that i have ever had in the doggy world. We had a xbreed do an excellent (no faults etc) on a 1000 in mixed bush in 8 minutes. That was the best teaching experince that i have ever had. I think drive, OC and CC work on both handlers and dogs in tracking if you get it right...

HI All

I don't mind posting an obedience example or another tracking or may be some one else might like to put an example out and let us have a go? 

Yeah I'm trying to think of a good one!  Of course we are NOT perfect but a lot of our "problems" have pretty obvious fixes.  Protection is always the tricky one...I have a good one for that (we already did fix the problem but it wasn't an obvious fix) but I don't know how many people here are really interested in that.

My tracking problem has been getting my dog to show the exact same behavior and intensity regardless of the conditions.  He tracks fine genetically, and he tracks "correctly" for SchH because he was taught to footstep.  The problem is that his style will change a bit depending on the conditions, which is absolutely natural, but not "correct" for SchH (where tracking is more of an obedience exercise, really).  For example, if the ground is damp and the track is more fresh with a ton of scent, his head might come up a bit.  The dog can track just fine without his nose in the ground with that much scent on the track.  If there's a crosswind, he might shift a foot or so off the track because of where the scent is blown.  Again, he tracks just fine and shows the same pace and drive, just off the track a bit.  It's hard to really motivate a dog like this for a SchH track because it's not really natural or practical.  What has worked for him is really stressing the search for articles.  He was taught article indication purely positive.  To him, an article is this awesome thing that = food, praise, pets, and sometimes even the toy (at the last one).  Now he tracks better because he's looking for those articles and he knows they are buried ON the track, not off to the side or sitting higher in the grass even though he can track those places and stay on track.  If he wants to find articles and get rewards he's got to be on the track with his snout getting muddy.

Liesje

My tracking problem has been getting my dog to show the exact same behavior and intensity regardless of the conditions.  He tracks fine genetically, and he tracks "correctly" for SchH because he was taught to footstep.  The problem is that his style will change a bit depending on the conditions, which is absolutely natural, but not "correct" for SchH (where tracking is more of an obedience exercise, really).  For example, if the ground is damp and the track is more fresh with a ton of scent, his head might come up a bit.  The dog can track just fine without his nose in the ground with that much scent on the track.  If there's a crosswind, he might shift a foot or so off the track because of where the scent is blown.  Again, he tracks just fine and shows the same pace and drive, just off the track a bit.  It's hard to really motivate a dog like this for a SchH track because it's not really natural or practical.  What has worked for him is really stressing the search for articles.  He was taught article indication purely positive.  To him, an article is this awesome thing that = food, praise, pets, and sometimes even the toy (at the last one).  Now he tracks better because he's looking for those articles and he knows they are buried ON the track, not off to the side or sitting higher in the grass even though he can track those places and stay on track.  If he wants to find articles and get rewards he's got to be on the track with his snout getting muddy.

This sounds like a good one to me! I know some solutions but lets see if there is some creativity out there.

What i will do for any others is just give a technical background . Tracking can be affected by conditons. Dogs actually scent best where of gradients or small changes of scent rather than a huge scent pool. so when the wind blows they move  a fraction off because there is good information a fraction off.

Another possible hassle is that for many dogs they can be up to 15 meters off a track and still detect the article. My poodle can directly detect an article on a windy dog 50 meters away!  Dam... Should video this, it is freaky. my Lab was even worse/better, may be 70 to 80 meters. If GSDs are the gold standard for ground work (and they share this with another couple of breeds) then Labs are the gold standard for air work.

Dogs heads can come up for two reasons. The first is that  the scent  gradient is better there, but often in the conditions that you describe, the maximum scent is off the ground.

Dogs are specialists in obedience AND in tracking. So we need to generalise things for different conditions that make dog sense not human sense

There are some good ways of increasing intensity including using such things as a dogs opposition reflex.

The human and organic scent is intensified in a human footstep.

Oh and CC and OC work just fine with tracking dogs  so what should we do?