New Research Suggests that Diversity in Dogs Comes from the Wolf's DNA

    • Gold Top Dog

     LCK, I believe I said that your posts seemed narcissistic, but I stopped short of labeling YOU a narcissist.  I realize that's a small difference perhaps, but a difference nevertheless.

    I am not qualified to diagnose. Wink

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    LCK said

    However, I would also suggest that, since for dogs, prey isn't necessarily something you eat, but something you chase, if you were to spend time with Shadow playing games where he gets to chase you and bite a tug toy as a reward, you might find that his feelings of "attraction" toward you, and therefore his responses of following and obeying you, would increase in both strength and probability.

    I agree with this aspect of dog behavior.  And, not only do they like chasing you, they often like to be chased.  However, I think that requires that we do sufficient education with owners so that they don't make the mistakes doing so that would negatively impact their ability to teach the dog to recall.  I like to make the slight distinction that prey is something you eat, but that dogs chase things that *resemble* prey, because they are incited by the movement. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     Would NDT theory hold that prey drive explains why human children chase one another too?

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    owever, I think that requires that we do sufficient education with owners so that they don't make the mistakes doing so that would negatively impact their ability to teach the dog to recall.  I like to make the slight distinction that prey is something you eat, but that dogs chase things that *resemble* prey, because they are incited by the movement. 

     

     

    I think that we forget that dogs play too, that play is highly rewarding and a very desirable state. I am loathe to put the lable "prey drive" on much at all, but use the phrase to communciate.

    I think that we need to remember what the function of play is. It makes this process a whole lot less mysterious. Play does a couple of really important things, it develops social bonds, and it is a rehershal for the real deal. So if we can get our dogs into this state they will try things they may normally not do. 

    I am a big fan of using play to train. I certainly can walk the walk on it, can show videos etc ( I think you have seen my older dog work?)

    Anecdotally there is a difference between behaviours motivated by reward and behaviours motivated by food for many breeds. The problem is that a lot of the data is qualatative and we need ot be really honest and careful with what we claim. I train with a group of people that are pretty dam good at it. We often shoot in the dark . It isn't well documented and i am loathe to suggest that other R+ options not be used. They all have their place. I still use a hell of a lot of food.

    One area of real caution is what i call prey initiated play. It can bounce on you and it may become aversive for some dogs. I am perfectedly willing to talk about this feature provided that we keep the conversation scientific, and err on the side of caution.

     

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     Consider Wikipedia: Narcissism is the personality trait of egotism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others. And synonyms from dictionary: presumption, superiority, arrogance, assurance, overconfidence, self-absorption, self-admiration, self-confidence, self-importance, self-interest, and insolence.

    Say a guy comes to an online forum on a regular basis to call everyone’s attention to his latest blog article at another website where he gets few comments - and edits those that he gets.  His threads at the forum often lead to heated debates in which he:

    a) admonishes those who disagree with his views to go and look at the correct answer at his blog,
    b) posts comments that are lengthy quotes from himself so you do not even have to go find his blog,
    c) tells you to go read all of his favorite sources, and
    d) if you challenge him to defend a point that is fundamental to his line of reasoning, he will deflect the challenge or simply refuse to acknowledge it.

    One such thread originated by this individual is about the relationship between wolves and dogs.   This thread here, now.

    When asked to explain his points in relation to rather controversial precepts put forth by Behan’s NDT theory to which he too subscribes and frequently quotes, and when provided easy links to a video and article written by Behan outlining these precepts (psycho-social action of wolf urination), he flippantly deflects the question saying “I haven't seen the video or read Kevin's take on it so I couldn't say.”

    Narcissism?  You be the judge.

    One expects a person would take his own advice, follow a referenced link to the vid and commentary, and provide us with his comments on it. 

    Video    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDBiKkhrICA&feature=channel

    and Behan’s analysis of it   http://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/evolution-of-a-group-mind/



     

    • Gold Top Dog

    As to the role of play being a model for prey chasing, I will grant the actions are similar. And Shadow can chase and kill a squirrel, though I don't think he always eats it. Prey instinct is there.

    And, yes, we are all animals and Shadow chasing me and vice versa can mimic play he might have with another dog in a game of chase. I also understand the point being made that Shadow following me for resources might be a sublimation of the prey drive and it might have been hinted in that direction when I said that working for me involves less energy than running and hunting for hours, when it comes to getting food. But it is still rewarding. To borrow from Anne, dogs do what works.

    Just as the dog you were helping with seemed focused on other dogs and people because the dog wanted to play. You got the owners to play with the dog, which the dog found rewarding. More rewarding than focusing on the other stimuli in the park.So, the undesired behavior of focusing on and charging at others extinguished, somewhat, in the presence of what? Let's say it together. A greater reward. Why is that the better explanation? Perhaps because it has been proven over and over again, ad infinitum, for decades with clinical, experimental, and empirical evidence. Papers and labs so full of minute detail as to put most anyone to sleep, reading data sets, etc.

    As for Skinner precluding thought, it was not a disproof of thought, but that thought was not necessary to explain the process of OC.

    You had a dog that was initially startled by the noise the first time you pulled out the futon. Next time, no startled reaction, the dog moved out of the way. But, I think, you have generalized from instance. Not every dog will react the same way. Same with my dog and the lawnmower. At first, the noise was startling. And then, he would move out of the way. And it would be a couple of weeks between mowings. Next time, he would pick a spot on the patch I had just mowed and plant himself there and relax. But another dog might not have that response or evolution of response, even. Perhaps it's a bit of a red herring. But he used to go nuts at the sound of the trash truck, twice a week. No reaction on our part to support or reinforce or even try and punish against the reaction. Eventually, it went a way. Perhaps different sounds had something to do with it. Perhaps the smell of the garbage truck is the link. So, I wouldn't say that he learned so much from the introduction of a novel event. The smell of a garbage truck (seeking resources) might be worth pursuing but the exhaust of a lawnmower, not so much.

    Again, questions brought up in your theory can still be answered by OC, or behaviorism as a whole. And you haven't provided proof. And quoting someone who's outspoken intent is to "dismantle OC" doesn't count as proof. And, since much of the "energy" theory rests on shaky and unproven aspects of QM, there is not likely to be documentable, measured proof any time soon.

    It also helps to remember that many "problem" behaviors in a dog are survival skills. Prey chase and catch, guarding, noticing differences in the environment (which may affect resources, though that may not always be the "conscious" thought of the dog) lead to survival. Jumping in each as a greeting, even if, initially, it also works as a launch against prey. Survival skills. These are done because, as a species and a unit, it has been rewarding (leading to survival) to do so. And we are asking the dog to do something different or sublimated, changing the effect or direction of their behavior. The only reason the dog will do so is because doing it our way is more rewarding. If it is not, they will ignore us.

    So, in my opinion, the "failure" of OC comes from misunderstanding the process, rather than a failure of the process. I might ask, ala Spiritdogs, "what are you reinforcing?" The most difficult part for me, at one time, wasn't reinforcing what I wanted. It was accidently reinforcing what I didn't want.

    I use food treats because Shadow finds that rewarding. My BIL has a Blue Merle Aussie who finds it most rewarding to herd, cut, and hold a ball as if it were a sheep. She loves that more than food treats. Different dog, same reward path. Breed may have something to do with it. Cassie is purebred Aussie. Shadow is mostly Siberian Husky, mixed with Lab.

    My understanding of non-linear theory is that, first, that's a misnomer. "Equilibrium" is rewarding because it leads to stabilization of resources which may require guarding activity.

    Also, what's missing from NDT is the fact, an undeniable fact, that some dogs have behavioral problems stemming from neurological problems. That is, the root is pathological or even ideopathic, i.e., chemical inbalance, genetic mutation of neurology, etc. In which case, any training method is going to suffer until meds are introduced. But even in the state of madness, the OC principles still apply.

    When faced with direct questions, you often reply with quotes and historical trivia of how other "great" minds faced similar opposition. Many people laughed at Einstein, and some still do. So, it may be part and parcel of proposing new theories, especially ones that run counter to everyone else's experience.

    So, what does the dopamine study really mean, at this point. Perhaps it means that it was wrong to include it or place much weight on it in the reward chain. Either we have not delineated all the chemical compounds in reward chain, or we don't understand the reward mechanism, and really, we're talking about why one behavior developes prominence over another. "Reward" is the nearest concept word to what is happening, kind of a shorthand description.

    So, my dog following me you describe as a version, or maybe, if I can put words on your mouth, a sublimation of prey drive. He doesn't have to kill me to get resources but he is still following the path to resources that would normally be expressed in prey drive. That doesn't change the fact that it is existentially rewarding. You haven't disproved OC, merely called a rose by another name.

    As for limits of OC in behavior mod, I would have to say a true discourse on its effectiveness or apparent lack of effectiveness needs a full understanding the initial conditions of the problem. "My dog barks at other people and I can't make him stop with treats" doesn't say enough.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Another thought. Might some behavior, initially linked or describe in prey drive, guarding, resource gathering, be contextual?  A dog licks us. Do we actually need grooming or is it an expression of care, making it contextual and not an actual desire to groom us? "You know, Ron, I would text you but I don't have opposable thumbs."

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    To continue a little more with sublimation or use of survival skills in training. Shadow can be a resource guarder. When the cat would get too close, he would chase after her and I would call "off" (trained with treats) and he would break off in mid-chase and return to me. I am using the resource guarding to change the outward effect of resource guarding. It appears I have stopped the resource guarding but I have not. I have used it to guide it. He quits chasing the cat because that gets him the resource that he was guarding against the cat. Ah, sweet irony, n'est pas?

    So, I view dog training as a use of resource guarding. How does a dog ensure the access to resources? By doing what the human asks. Path of least resistance, greatest reward in the face of all other rewards.

    And what I have done is totally and adequately explained by OC, as I have just done. So, OC can and has been used to address a behavioral "problem."

    • Gold Top Dog

    Hi Ron,

    Thanks for your reply.

    In framing my response, I've asked a lot of questions. This form of discourse can make the tone of one's words seem tendentious, which is not my intent. I'm just trying to help open up the possibility that there's another way of looking at things than through the more familiar window of behavioral science.

    ron2
    As to the role of play being a model for prey chasing, I will grant the actions are similar. And Shadow can chase and kill a squirrel, though I don't think he always eats it.

    Does he ever eat squirrels? I don't mean rip one to pieces, I mean does he actually gobble it up?

    If not, what does that say about the reasons for this behavior? Survival/resources? Or release of energy?

    ron2
    And, yes, we are all animals and Shadow chasing me and vice versa can mimic play he might have with another dog in a game of chase.

    Right. And when dogs chase one another in play, do they do so because they're scavengers at heart? Is play directly related to the model of learning being solely about survival resources? If we look at play at the simplest level possible - a release of pent-up energy - then, at that level at least, what's most satisfying about play is that it releases energy. (There are other factors, of course, mostly related to the social rather than survival instincts.)

    ron2
    Just as the dog [cocker spaniel] you were helping with seemed focused on other dogs and people because the dog wanted to play. You got the owners to play with the dog, which the dog found rewarding. More rewarding than focusing on the other stimuli in the park.So, the undesired behavior of focusing on and charging at others extinguished, somewhat, in the presence of what? Let's say it together. A greater reward. Why is that the better explanation?

    Better explanation than what? I've said, numerous times, that what's actually rewarding is the reduction of internal tension or stress. When the cocker lunged at cyclists and joggers was he interested in seeking survival resources? Or was he trying to release excess energy? (BTW, In my first article in the Unified Dog Theory series, I stated quite clearly that if the work that Gallistel and others are doing is correct, then not only is it possible that the OC model may be wrong, so would my use of Freud's principles of energy release.)

    ron2
    You had a dog that was initially startled by the noise the first time you pulled out the futon. Next time, no startled reaction, the dog moved out of the way. But, I think, you have generalized from instance. Not every dog will react the same way.

    True, but I don't think that's relevant to what I was saying, which is that the dog's behavior had nothing to do with operant conditioning. He wasn't operating on his environment, he was responding to changes in it. So operant conditioning, no. Classical conditioning? Maybe. 

    ron2
    Again, questions brought up in your theory can still be answered by OC, or behaviorism as a whole. And you haven't provided proof. And quoting someone who's outspoken intent is to "dismantle OC" doesn't count as proof. And, since much of the "energy" theory rests on shaky and unproven aspects of QM, there is not likely to be documentable, measured proof any time soon.

    As I wrote in my last post to you, I have provided plenty of proof. And you're mischaracterizing my reliance on Gallistel's work again. I haven't just "quoted" Gallistel, I've given scientific evidence, provided by him and many others. Just go to the references section of any of Gallistel's papers, and you'll see a long list of neuroscientists doing work in this very same area.

    ron2
    It also helps to remember that many "problem" behaviors in a dog are survival skills. Prey chase and catch, guarding, noticing differences in the environment (which may affect resources, though that may not always be the "conscious" thought of the dog) lead to survival. ... The only reason the dog will do so is because doing it our way is more rewarding. If it is not, they will ignore us.

    All very true. But what, exactly, is the reward? That's the question here.

    There are three basic instincts in dogs: the survival, reproductive, and social instincts. They sometimes operate separately, sometimes they overlap. Why does a dog give up a chicken breast just because his owner praises him while he's got the tasty morsel in his mouth? If the dogs-as-scavengers model were 100% accurate, that probably wouldn't and couldn't happen. In this case the dog's social instincts trumped his "survival needs." I'm not saying that survival (or scavenging) aren't part of the picture, just that when we actually take a step back, and observe dogs from an energetic perspective, we can actually see plenty examples where survival is not paramount.

    ron2
    So, in my opinion, the "failure" of OC comes from misunderstanding the process, rather than a failure of the process.

    Don't get me wrong. OC works much of the time. But it isn't 100% accurate, or 100% effective. And dogs are our clearest window into how and why it doesn't work all the time. To repeat what I've said before, I'm not suggesting throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm simply questioning the conventional wisdom behind +R training.

    ron2
    When faced with direct questions, you often reply with quotes and historical trivia.

    I have no idea what you're talking about, Ron. Sorry. I don't think I've ever replied to direct questions with historical trivia.

    And by the way, can you please try to differentiate between my version of Kevin Behan's theory -- which doesn't rely on or have anything at all to do with quantum physics -- and mine? Thank you. (Neither does his, actually; I think he uses it primarily as an analogy).

    Thanks again,

    LCK

    PS: Where do you get your information about Kevin's theory? Have you read anything directly from his website? If you want answers about things you find to be problematic, it would be best to go straight to the source. Kevin is more than willing to answer any and all questions that anyone has. He's much more patient with people who lack manners than I am.

    PPS: Kevin Behan was one of the first K-9 trainers to use food and conditioning techniques as part of his training regimen. So it's not as if NDT has absolutely no overlap with behavioral science. It's simply that we don't think behavioral science has all the answers. Even Ian Dunbar and Patricia McConnell are beginning to come up against this reality. So what I'm trying to do with my unified dog theory isn't to narrow everything down to one tiny window of prey-drive/release-of-tension. I'm trying to open all our windows a little wider.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Burl

     Consider Wikipedia: Narcissism is the personality trait of egotism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others. And synonyms from dictionary: presumption, superiority, arrogance, assurance, overconfidence, self-absorption, self-admiration, self-confidence, self-importance, self-interest, and insolence.

    Say a guy comes to an online forum on a regular basis to call everyone’s attention to his latest blog article at another website where he gets few comments - and edits those that he gets.  His threads at the forum often lead to heated debates in which he:

    a) admonishes those who disagree with his views to go and look at the correct answer at his blog,
    b) posts comments that are lengthy quotes from himself so you do not even have to go find his blog,
    c) tells you to go read all of his favorite sources, and
    d) if you challenge him to defend a point that is fundamental to his line of reasoning, he will deflect the challenge or simply refuse to acknowledge it.

    Above, we have narcissism defined and postulated.

    Below, we find clear confirmation.

    Lee Charles Kelley

    Hi Ron,

    Thanks for your reply.

    In framing my response, I've asked a lot of questions. This form of discourse can make the tone of one's words seem tendentious, which is not my intent. I'm just trying to help open up the possibility that there's another way of looking at things than through the more familiar window of behavioral science.

    ron2
    As to the role of play being a model for prey chasing, I will grant the actions are similar. And Shadow can chase and kill a squirrel, though I don't think he always eats it.

    Does he ever eat squirrels? I don't mean rip one to pieces, I mean does he actually gobble it up?

    If not, what does that say about the reasons for this behavior? Survival/resources? Or release of energy?

    ron2
    And, yes, we are all animals and Shadow chasing me and vice versa can mimic play he might have with another dog in a game of chase.

    Right. And when dogs chase one another in play, do they do so because they're scavengers at heart? Is play directly related to the model of learning being solely about survival resources? If we look at play at the simplest level possible - a release of pent-up energy - then, at that level at least, what's most satisfying about play is that it releases energy. (There are other factors, of course, mostly related to the social rather than survival instincts.)

    ron2
    Just as the dog [cocker spaniel] you were helping with seemed focused on other dogs and people because the dog wanted to play. You got the owners to play with the dog, which the dog found rewarding. More rewarding than focusing on the other stimuli in the park.So, the undesired behavior of focusing on and charging at others extinguished, somewhat, in the presence of what? Let's say it together. A greater reward. Why is that the better explanation?

    Better explanation than what? I've said, numerous times, that what's actually rewarding is the reduction of internal tension or stress. When the cocker lunged at cyclists and joggers was he interested in seeking survival resources? Or was he trying to release excess energy? (BTW, In my first article in the Unified Dog Theory series, I stated quite clearly that if the work that Gallistel and others are doing is correct, then not only is it possible that the OC model may be wrong, so would my use of Freud's principles of energy release.)

    ron2
    You had a dog that was initially startled by the noise the first time you pulled out the futon. Next time, no startled reaction, the dog moved out of the way. But, I think, you have generalized from instance. Not every dog will react the same way.

    True, but I don't think that's relevant to what I was saying, which is that the dog's behavior had nothing to do with operant conditioning. He wasn't operating on his environment, he was responding to changes in it. So operant conditioning, no. Classical conditioning? Maybe. 

    ron2
    Again, questions brought up in your theory can still be answered by OC, or behaviorism as a whole. And you haven't provided proof. And quoting someone who's outspoken intent is to "dismantle OC" doesn't count as proof. And, since much of the "energy" theory rests on shaky and unproven aspects of QM, there is not likely to be documentable, measured proof any time soon.

    As I wrote in my last post to you, I have provided plenty of proof. And you're mischaracterizing my reliance on Gallistel's work again. I haven't just "quoted" Gallistel, I've given scientific evidence, provided by him and many others. Just go to the references section of any of Gallistel's papers, and you'll see a long list of neuroscientists doing work in this very same area.

    ron2
    It also helps to remember that many "problem" behaviors in a dog are survival skills. Prey chase and catch, guarding, noticing differences in the environment (which may affect resources, though that may not always be the "conscious" thought of the dog) lead to survival. ... The only reason the dog will do so is because doing it our way is more rewarding. If it is not, they will ignore us.

    All very true. But what, exactly, is the reward? That's the question here.

    There are three basic instincts in dogs: the survival, reproductive, and social instincts. They sometimes operate separately, sometimes they overlap. Why does a dog give up a chicken breast just because his owner praises him while he's got the tasty morsel in his mouth? If the dogs-as-scavengers model were 100% accurate, that probably wouldn't and couldn't happen. In this case the dog's social instincts trumped his "survival needs." I'm not saying that survival (or scavenging) aren't part of the picture, just that when we actually take a step back, and observe dogs from an energetic perspective, we can actually see plenty examples where survival is not paramount.

    ron2
    So, in my opinion, the "failure" of OC comes from misunderstanding the process, rather than a failure of the process.

    Don't get me wrong. OC works much of the time. But it isn't 100% accurate, or 100% effective. And dogs are our clearest window into how and why it doesn't work all the time. To repeat what I've said before, I'm not suggesting throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm simply questioning the conventional wisdom behind +R training.

    ron2
    When faced with direct questions, you often reply with quotes and historical trivia.

    I have no idea what you're talking about, Ron. Sorry. I don't think I've ever replied to direct questions with historical trivia.

    And by the way, can you please try to differentiate between my version of Kevin Behan's theory -- which doesn't rely on or have anything at all to do with quantum physics -- and mine? Thank you. (Neither does his, actually; I think he uses it primarily as an analogy),

    Thanks again,

    LCK

     
    • Gold Top Dog

    Yes, I have read Behan's own words. Some of them are linked in this thread, surprisingly enough, by someone other than you. And he does use quantum consciousness theory.

    As for the work of Gallistel, et al., they are not, in that paper you linked, disregarding or disproving the reward chain. Or even, as it were, disproving OC. The were noting that the momentary release of dopamine in an event was not affecting the rewarding factor. That's a long way from saying that dogs don't learn by way of OC or that learning is not taking place.

    As for a dog giving up a tasty morsel or tasty bone, people in this forum do it all the time. I have done it. One day, we had a mouse in the house. It was a family affair. Jade, the cat, was getting in tight corners. I lifted up one end of the sofa, DW pounded on the sofa, but Shadow had the speed and hunting experience and got the mouse (actually, a cotton rat.) You don't get more raw than live rat. I grabbed some of the cheapie treats that are nothing more than flavored flour and said "drop it." He dropped it. Because getting things from me is rewarding. In some time in the past, momentary reward became long term reward. I picked up the unlucky rat and disposed of it.

    And, recently, I think he has learned to eat squirrels but back when he was around 2 years old, I found them dead but whole. What makes me think he eats them, now? I find scat in the back yard with bits of fur and bone in it. Different looking fur than a cotton rat.

    I will try and re-read and differentiate between you and Behan but it may take a while.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Hi Ron,

    Thanks for taking the time to respond to my last post. I appreciate it.

    It's late, I'm extremely tired, and I'm trying to watch the ballgame out of one ear while I also do some quick work online. So my reply may sound as if I'm being a bit testy. So please bear with me. I just want to clarify a few things.

    ron2
    Yes, I have read Behan's own words. Some of them are linked in this thread, surprisingly enough, by someone other than you. And he does use quantum consciousness theory.

    I think that's a misinterpretation, but quantum physics is not part of my version of Kevin's energy theory anymore, so it doesn't matter to me. However, I would suggest that if you want to understand his theory (which perhaps you don't), it might be helpful to keep in mind that he's using quantum physics as an analogy to what's going on inside the network consciousness, i.e., that dogs and wolves seem to be able to enter into a state of "emotional coherence," the way the photons in a laser or the synchronized quantum wave functions of atoms in a Bose-Einstein condensate do. But again, that's more of an analogy than anything else.

    ron2
    As for the work of Gallistel, et al., they are not, in that paper you linked, disregarding or disproving the reward chain. Or even, as it were, disproving OC. The were noting that the momentary release of dopamine in an event was not affecting the rewarding factor. That's a long way from saying that dogs don't learn by way of OC or that learning is not taking place.

    Okay, here's the basic sequence we went through.

    1) You said that by just quoting one guy (Randy Gallistel) I wasn't providing any proof. 

    2) I said that Gallistel is just one of a number of neuroscientists who are finding anomalies in OC. 

    3) To show that this was so, I provided a link to one paper by Gallistel, with the specific intention of having you look at the references section only, just to see how many other names were there besides "the guy" I was quoting. All I was attempting to "prove," was that I'm not just quoting one guy, I'm using his work as the main brushstroke to paint a bigger picture of what's going on in neuroscience v. behaviorism.

    So that was then (earlier today), this is now (it's the ninth inning in Philadelphia). And since dopamine is referred to by behavioral scientists -- and, in fact, most scientists -- as a major player in the brain's "reward circuitry," that one little two-page paper by Gallistel does, in fact, have some bearing on the possibility that dogs do not learn by virtue of the consequences of their actions being rewarded. It's a piece of the puzzle.

    ron2
    As for a dog giving up a tasty morsel or tasty bone, people in this forum do it all the time. I have done it. One day, we had a mouse in the house. It was a family affair. Jade, the cat, was getting in tight corners. I lifted up one end of the sofa, DW pounded on the sofa, but Shadow had the speed and hunting experience and got the mouse (actually, a cotton rat.) You don't get more raw than live rat. I grabbed some of the cheapie treats that are nothing more than flavored flour and said "drop it." He dropped it.

    Wow, that's quite a scene! A cotton rat, huh? That sounds like a lot of excitement. However, sometimes I think we all have a tendency to scan things too quickly on sites like this. I know I've done it before. And that's what you seem to have done here.

    What you've described is quite different from what I was talking about. I'm talking about praising a dog -- saying, "Good boy!" -- while he already has a tasty tidbit in his mouth. That's quite different from telling the dog to drop it, and offering him a treat in place of the thing he's grabbed. Here, all that's being offered is the feeling of being praised. And yet, it works.

    So, if the dog drops the treat because you've praised him ("Good boy! You got a tasty treat! Yay!';), and he subsequently learns not to scavenge at all, ever -- simply because he's been praised every time he showed any interest in scavenging (meaning that praise was used as an aversive stimulus) -- this would mean that the laws of operant conditioning don't always hold up, in fact they can sometimes operate backwards.

    I've discussed this for hours and hours with actual academic behavioral scientists in the comments section at PT.com, as well as with a bevy (or two) of +R trainers who know their stuff inside and out (Eric Goebelbecker is one name that comes to mind). And no one has yet given me a logical, sensible explanation -- using the principles of operant conditioning -- for how this can happen, because, in effect, you're using praise (most commonly used by dog trainers as a form of positive reinforcement) to extinguish an unwanted behavior. And yet, it works.

    ron2
    I will try and re-read and differentiate between you and Behan but it may take a while.

     

    I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just try to be careful, if you don't mind. That's all I ask.

    Thanks again. I hope I haven't been too argumentative.

    LCK

    • Gold Top Dog

    Burl

     Would NDT theory hold that prey drive explains why human children chase one another too?

     

    Yes, but they stop short of the kill bite if they are well behaved... Devil

    • Gold Top Dog

    Don't get me wrong. OC works much of the time. But it isn't 100% accurate, or 100% effective. And dogs are our clearest window into how and why it doesn't work all the time. To repeat what I've said before, I'm not suggesting throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm simply questioning the conventional wisdom behind +R training.

    LCK, I hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but NOTHING is 100% accurate or effective.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    LCK, I did read the article and I looked at the number of other references. And many references were logged in that section of the study. But the gist of the paper was not "proof" that OC doesn't work nor is it proof that the other researchers noted in the references are also seeking to prove that OC doesn't work. That is, the other researchers linked in are noted because of their work that is similar in either neurochemistry or even a specialization in the effects of dopamine on nerve endings. And while dopamine might be present in both rewarding and non-rewarding situations, this paper doesn't even really prove that dopamine is not part of the reward chain, and they state a difference between short-term event-inspired release of dopamine and long term release of dopamine which has something of a diminishing returns effect, which is also understandable and might go towards explaining how training takes place, in some fashion. A dog notices a change in environment and that change is marked by dopamine increase, even without the presence of a food treat, such as the dog and futon or the dog and the lawnmower. Dog moves and lives another day, rewarded by adjusting response to environment in a way to that allows survival to continue.

    And the other people linked are not necessarily on the same page as Gallistel trying to "dismantle" OC. They are researchers in the same or similar fields upon whom he may have based some of his summations or they did the actual research and he just wrote the paper. But it does not prove that OC is wrong nor was that the intent of the summation of this paper. And, like any paper, it concentrates on one effect of one compound. There could be other factors in the reward chain not yet investigated. You might be reading too much into what the dopamine study means.

    For some dogs, vocal praise is the greatest reward. For others, it's food treats. For still others, it's frisbee. Deciding that vocal praise is the only true reward is human arrogance. So, let me reiterate. Shadow gave up the real thing for a cheap substitute. While the natural inclination is to hunt or scavenge for food, "drop it", trained by the methods of OC, caused him to release the live kill because the long-term effect or habit is that listening to me is always rewarding, forever, amen. It's a law of the universe, as it were. And even that is following the path to survival. I am using his path to survival to make a little detour, here. Other times, alone in the backyard, he has caught other cotton rats and ate them. Once or twice, I have found scat for that, too.

    And, a dog may learn not to scavenge around you but that doesn't stop him from scavenging when alone. And the use of praise for dropping an item is not an aversive. It is a reward for re-directing. The only other reason for praising a behavior that is not always desired is to put it on cue. The reason being, if a dog learns to do things on cue, then they won't do behavior x because it hasn't been cued. I have also done that with Shadow. I wanted him to stop jumping on people. I trained "off" with treats. I also trained "up-up" (jumping on people) so that I could have it on cue and he is less likely to do it because it's more rewarding to only do it on cue.

    And just to be clear, Shadow wasn't scavenging the rat, he was hunting prey. Scavenging is picking up an item already dead but interesting, nevertheless. Dogs scavenge and hunt. Coyotes also scavenge. Wolves sometimes scavenge but they hunt a lot and are, along with man, apex hunters, taking down prey bigger than themselves, as man also takes down prey bigger than himself.

    Granted, a dog wakes up refreshed with energy to go and hunt or scavenge. And, most pets don't have to do that to get food. So what do they do with the energy normally used up in those pursuits? They play, which can be practice of hunting and scavenging skills, which also including guarding skills, such as two dogs playing tug with a rope. But even then, often, one dog will let go and let the other have the rope. And the play can reverse. And this is where it is contextual. Letting go of the rope is respect to the other. Respect, for lack of a better term (I know it's a human term used as a shorthand), provides social cohesion, which supports combined hunting activity in bringing down large prey. In the end, it is still a survival skill. That is, the tension and release of tug is not the end, in and of itself. It is a skill or behavior set that has allowed canids to survive for eons while other species have long gone extinct. What is the purpose of living so long? That's a religious question. And any answer above the biological imperative to survive and procreate is likely to be a religious answer and it's only honest to accept that. But one person's religion is not necessarily a reflection of reality.

    So, you haven't proven that OC worked backwards or that the process of OC wasn't holding up. In fact, it was something of a straw boss, to be conveniently knocked down. A dog praised for not scavenging in your presence is not an example of an aversive to stop the behavior of scavenging in your presence. It is an example of a dog for whom praise is the highest reward redirecting behavior or extinguishing the behavior of scavenging in your presence in the presence of the greater reward for what you want. OC.