Pivoting For Heel

I'm not a clicker trainer - but I wonder if you rewarded the wrong motion.  Do you click-treat when only one foot is on the book?  Any clicker trainer I've seen do this does *not* click/treat until both feet are on the book (brick, whatever)  Google "Celeste Meade" and "brick" together and you'll find video where you can see and clearly hear when she rewards the dog w/the click/treat.

ShelterDogs

What's the trick to prevent him from sitting or going into a down before putting foot on book?

 Timing of your reward is the "trick".  Does your dog have a "stand" command yet?

ShelterDogs

If I use forward motion to stop him he'll just back up.

Your dog does the reverse of what you want??  That seems odd.  Video of you might help us help you find the spot where you are clicking/treating vs where you *should* be click/treating

PS, try using a different "base" to see if that changes the dog's reaction.  Instead of a book, try a sturdy box or something similar wrapped in a hand towel to give a different texture.  Perhaps that can break his "spell" on that particular issue until he gets that whatever command you're using means "keep both front feet on this spot until I say otherwise", regardless of the target spot (book, brick, tub, whatever)

miranadobe

I'm not a clicker trainer - but I wonder if you rewarded the wrong motion.  Do you click-treat when only one foot is on the book?  Any clicker trainer I've seen do this does *not* click/treat until both feet are on the book (brick, whatever)  Google "Celeste Meade" and "brick" together and you'll find video where you can see and clearly hear when she rewards the dog w/the click/treat.

Thanks for the advice. I rewatched the video again and I need to get my dog to follow me around a bit more. I was standing close to the book and then I would lure him him to the book from his sit. The video does say to click even if you get one foot. That is called shaping. I will google that person you mentioned, though. Thank you for the info.

Jason L

Try getting him to walk over the brick/book/touchpad. The moment his front paws are on the book, click and reward. Start the session with lots of movement (get the dog to chase you around for treats) to free him up a little first.

Thanks for the tip. That is what I'm doing wrong. I rewatched the video as I stated above... I need to get him to be in motion while he steps on the book. I was doing it all wrong. He was sitting near the book and then putting his paw on the book and I would click. This is going to be quite a challenge to get him to walk on the book, though.

I did the Celeste Meade brick work, with Bean. It has worked BEAUTIFULLY! There was some luring involved. I did not free shape her, because she has never, ever been free shaped. I don't want her offering behaviors when she gets frustrated. I lured, and marked. I started out by moving with her. She now pivots very smoothly, and can circle left or right with me staying in the same spot.

Here's a video of Michael Ellis working with someone on getting his dog on the brick/touchpad

How you train this depends on the dog.  Nikon has done a LOT of freeshaping with the clicker, so in his case I *did* click/treat before both feet were on the perch, but he progressed from nothing to perching  and pivoting in about 2 minutes in a single training session.  He understands he will have to keep working and problem solving, just b/c I C/T one thing does not mean that is the end goal.  If I wait, he *will* keep thinking and offer something else.

For a dog like Kenya that is less "free" and needs more help, I would lure her onto the perch and then C/T the correct position.

When you think about it, it's really not much different than the 101 things to do with a box game.  I start Sequoyah on that kind of thing by just putting the object down on the floor and letting her interact with it.  She gets C/T for whatever behavior I want her to repeat, and I don't worry a lot if she's wrong, because I know that if she doesn't get her click, she'll move on to another behavior to try to make me click.  I don't mind if a dog offers behaviors when she gets frustrated, because if I just ignore them and don't attach a cue - they go away;-) 

I mind, because I am working with a dog who is easily stressed, and competing with her. She has started her OCD spinning in the ring, before, and I have had to excuse us. Offering behaviors in the ring would have the same effect With a less nutso dog, it's probably just fine, LOL. I freeshaped Emma, a lot, and she LOVED it!

jennie_c_d

I mind, because I am working with a dog who is easily stressed, and competing with her. She has started her OCD spinning in the ring, before, and I have had to excuse us. Offering behaviors in the ring would have the same effect With a less nutso dog, it's probably just fine, LOL. I freeshaped Emma, a lot, and she LOVED it!

I agree that if you have a specific problem that you would have to deal differently, but in general I like to see a dog ask "is this it?" - that's a little different than stereotypical behavior patterns that emerge under stress.  As the owner of a nutso dog, though, whatever works lol.

Hi

There have been discussions before about temperament and free shaping and stress. I guess that free shaping may not be on with a dog that is prone to stress if you can not manage it.

I have done the telephone book stunt for over a decade. If you need to keep them moving. If you need to shape and the dog is stressed, sit down throw some calming signals and move in tiny increments.

If this was a new exercise for bot my dogs, i would expect them to get it with in seconds. But they now how to get the rewards our of me and are very bold and brash dogs.

I think it's more about the dog's drive than the stress level.  Even for my higher drive dog that does freeshaping VERY well, he is often stressed, but that is the point.  I bring him into a state of imbalance/discomfort (either physically or mentally) and he has the drive to work and problem solve through that stress to figure out what I want and how to get at the reward.  He actually shows MORE stress while freeshaping than my female who lacks the drive and confidence and just stands there or goes into avoidance because she can't figure out what I want.  When I freeshaped Nikon's retrieve, I took videos of several sessions and was told by several people it was very helpful for them to read my explanation and see videos that I took *while* the dog was being trained (I didn't train the behavior chain, then go back and make a video for each step).  In the first video, which is his truly his first session, he shows many stressful behaviors like whining/screaming, big yawns, looking away, ear position, etc.  But he goes from nothing to firmly and calming taking the dowel in one session, ends with his tail wagging and a tug game.  With this particular dog, he actually works *better* the more pressure and stress you create, but there again, he has more drive, he is very resilient, and he has the confidence to try things without being worried whether that behavior is "OK" or not.

The issue with my female is that she does not have the same drive level, she is less confident (so more likely to be worried about trying the wrong thing and more likely to just sit there), and she is less resilient/she cannot instantly recover if she feels she's made a mistake.

For my training it's not just the level of stress itself that I'm evaluating but how each dog reacts to it.  Again, with a dog like Nikon I intentionally create more stress.  With a dog like Kenya there needs to be less because she lacks the drive to push through and recover from the stress.

Liesje

The issue with my female is that she does not have the same drive level, she is less confident (so more likely to be worried about trying the wrong thing and more likely to just sit there), and she is less resilient/she cannot instantly recover if she feels she's made a mistake.

Something weird to consider could be the item you're using as a perch.  For the longest time, even with crazily obvious luring, Nike would NOT step on a book.  I tried different books, different sizes, nothing.  It turned out not to be a fun game because I could tell he didn't think it was ok to step on the book, and I was stressing him by asking him to do it.  Call me crazy, but I think it was an issue that he didn't want to step on items that didn't belong to him?  Nike is an extremely polite dog, never plays with anything that's not his, is amazingly respectful of everything in the house.  Eventually I thought to put a carpet square on top of a large book and *bingo* it wasn't a book anymore.  Then we were able to attach a cue to the action of stepping on the book, and were able to transfer it to other items.  He seemed much more relaxed about standing on a book once he was *sure* it was what I really wanted by way of the cue.