Hey, now we're talkin'....

It heartens me to read this  Thanks for posting it, Anne- I would've missed it otherwise.

"Obviously, any book with Cesar’s name on it is destined to be a best seller, no matter what the content. Since any content is guaranteed enormous exposure, we thought, why not have reward-based training techniques get the exposure."

Maybe he is using Cesar for his own benefit? That would be a very smart thing to do. Cesar gets to more people that Ian Dunbar will ever dream of. Certainly i have looked into books from other people that Cesar recommends in his own books.

Dog training (teaching the dog how to sit, stay, etc.) will never be possible other than using positive reinforcement. If Cesar would try to "train" dogs without +R it would be a total failure.

Average dog owners that are not smart enough to go ahead and investigate if there are actually other dog trainers out there who wrote tons of books already about "how to". Those are the kind of people who were asking for this book.

Cesar is not stupid either, if he can make a couple million dollars out of people who are too lazy to get their butt to their computer and look for clicker training videos then he will do so.

Americans want everything handed to them directly "Hey Cesar, why dont you do the research for me and make a book about it?, i'm too lazy to memorize other trainers names, since i watch a lot of TV you are the only one i know of"

I'm certainly will not buy this book. Cesar is not a dog trainer, he will be just the "middle man" between +R experts and general public. If I'm interested on learning about +R (which is not rocket science) then i would get rid of the middle man and go directly to the experts.

But if i were Cesar or Ian Dunbar i would do exactly what they are doing right now and would let the sweet smell of money to stuff my bank account

While dealing with the forum-spanner over in the McConnell thread, I mentioned that I just listened to CM's 2007 book and was pleased with how balanced a view of canines he presented.  It made sense to me as it resonated with my 11 years of living with a household of humans and dogs.

In revisiting his DVDs, I saw that his videos all begin saying he works to rehabilitate (problem behavior in) dogs and _train people_.  He says over and over that he is not a dog trainer. He takes pains to show he is not physically harming the problem dog. He is willing to put the problem behavior under a stressful discioline to gain a release, but even the position statement from AVSAB recognizes and condones limited use of such efficacious techniques.

(spiritdogs, I read the originally-linked statement you recommended in the 'Dog Agression' thread.)

Caesar's mantra, in order of importance is

      1) Exercise (recognization of the importance of physical energy)

      2) Discipline (need to know who to respect - only limited democracy)

      3) Affection

You guys pointed us to NILIF when we were focused on Peanut's behavior, and it was excellent advice.  I see NILIF as very compatible with CM's 3 points.

 Again, I am not taking any sides.  My goal is a better understanding of how our dogs feel/think, and see any open-minded approach to better understanding canine cognition and behavior as a good thing.

Hey, I agree with espencer.

Burl, the problem I have with Cesar's mantra is that it's just COMMON SENSE.  I mean, it's kind of funny to think of how much attention someone is attracting just constantly re-iterating things that dog owners (not even trainers or dog "professionals";) have always known.  When I see people following him around like a demi-dog and reciting his mantra it just looks silly to me.  Any regular on this forum could have told them that.

 Liesje, I see your point, and I thought much the same way after reading about NILIF.  But to become common sense, something must first be experienced.  NILIF makes simple sense to me now, but before using its simple rules, I am afraid we had placed Caesar's 3rd point prior to his 2nd point.  NILIF corrected us on this.

On a related note, this comes from Ian Dunbar's blog, and shows that we all could stand to get humble about dog understanding...

I think it is time to come full-circle and for pet dog trainers to rewrite the LBOLT as a simple and practical text ... [and to especially recognize:]  the frequency of a behavior is dependent on its immediate outcome: if the outcome is pleasant, the behavior will increase in frequency; if the outcome is unpleasant, the behavior will decrease in frequency.

 That is common sense.

Exercise - important

Discipline- guess this is the part I have trouble with - it matters HOW you effect discipline, and that's what all the controversy is about. 

Affection - Fine

I think it's interesting that the one book espencer doesn't plan to get is the one with Dunbar in it - it's almost as if you think you couldn't possibly learn anything.  FYI, Bob Bailey is in it, too.  Might be worth the read to hear from him.

Liesje

Burl, the problem I have with Cesar's mantra is that it's just COMMON SENSE. 

You would think so but I haven't found this to be true.  Not just CM's mantra but many concepts such as NILIF, which is just another way of creating a conditioned response, are not known to much of the general dog owning public.  They don't see the need to read or learn about dogs unless they encounter a problem.  Even then many people just live with behavior issues that could be solved or they get rid of the dog and get another. 

As for the collaboration, I can't see anything but good coming from it. :)

spiritdogs

Exercise - important

Discipline- guess this is the part I have trouble with - it matters HOW you effect discipline, and that's what all the controversy is about. 

Affection - Fine

 

Spiritdogs, your observation seems to be the key.  Just think of all the synonyms for 'discipline' we see being touted by the various trainers.  And with each synonym, the trainer that uses it somehow believes s/he has come up with a grand new philosophical metaphysics of Dog. 

But when you look at what they are saying must happen to train the dog, the differences tend to be less distinct.  As to HOW people will execute these tenets of their chosen metaphysics of Dog, that seems dependent on the temperament of the human.

I guess it is much the same for religious denominations.

Liesje

Hey, I agree with espencer.

Burl, the problem I have with Cesar's mantra is that it's just COMMON SENSE.  I mean, it's kind of funny to think of how much attention someone is attracting just constantly re-iterating things that dog owners (not even trainers or dog "professionals";) have always known.  When I see people following him around like a demi-dog and reciting his mantra it just looks silly to me.  Any regular on this forum could have told them that.

Haven't you heard?  Common sense ain't that common 

I won't be buying the book.  It just doesn't scream "BUY ME!" at me.  But I'm glad that CM has been changing and growing.  I suppose first impressions stick, and I haven't quite shaken off some off the stuff I've seen him do in his earlier shows... and I know that while HE may have learned and moved on to better, gentler techniques.... His fans are going to take a lot longer.  Sigh.  He's an advocate for dogs, and a much more positive one now.  He's reaching a lot of people.  He's getting them TALKING about dog behaviour.  He's getting people WALKING their dogs.  All good stuff and yet.... Meh.

Burl

As to HOW people will execute these tenets of their chosen metaphysics of Dog, that seems dependent on the temperament of the human.

For me it is dependent on the temperament of the dog.  I treat/train/set boundaries for each of my dogs totally differently.  I don't believe we can just pick whatever makes sense to us at first glance without regard to the dog's temperament and learning style.

Liesje

Burl

As to HOW people will execute these tenets of their chosen metaphysics of Dog, that seems dependent on the temperament of the human.

 

For me it is dependent on the temperament of the dog.  I treat/train/set boundaries for each of my dogs totally differently.  I don't believe we can just pick whatever makes sense to us at first glance without regard to the dog's temperament and learning style.

Very, very good point.  A caring and experienced dog lover is engaged in a unique relationship, no two of which are totally alike.   Two subjects - dog and human - each with its own subjective  psychological temperament are in a mutual relationship.

 If a canine subject is given over to a different human subject, the relationship between temperaments will, in varying degrees, now be different. 

Burl

Liesje

Burl

As to HOW people will execute these tenets of their chosen metaphysics of Dog, that seems dependent on the temperament of the human.

 

For me it is dependent on the temperament of the dog.  I treat/train/set boundaries for each of my dogs totally differently.  I don't believe we can just pick whatever makes sense to us at first glance without regard to the dog's temperament and learning style.

 

Very, very good point.  A caring and experienced dog lover is engaged in a relationship, no two of which are alike.   Two subjects, each with a psychological temperament, are in mutual relationship.

 If a canine subject is given over to a different human subject, the relationship between temperaments is now different. 

I guess it is much the same for religious denominations.

Which is why we have wars (sigh).  People get even more fanatical about religion than about dog training...