Patricia McConnell Re-Homes One of Her Dogs

Liesje

To be honest I don't want to own dogs that will openly accept ANY and ALL dogs into our home or pack at any time.  Maybe wild dogs are this way but not my domesticated dogs.  The will accept and like who *I* say so and who is a member of our family (canine or human).  All other dogs can be on their way, nothing to see here.  I don't care who says dogs should always do this or that.  My dogs behave exactly as I want and expect them to, with regard to other dogs.

Hi Liesje,

Thanks for your comment. I appreciate being able to learn about your point of view.

Actually, I think dogs are driven to make connections with other dogs whenever and wherever possible. Even the most aggressive dog is trying to make a connection, just not a pleasant and harmonious one.

That aside, I'm not expecting you or anyone else to change the way you allow or don't allow your dogs to make social connections. And I totally agree with your statement, "My dogs behave exactly as I want and expect them to, with regard to other dogs." But Patricia McConnell wanted her dogs to get along. So there's a big difference between you you teach your dogs to behave toward strange dogs, and how you might want to find ways for the dogs you have to learn to get along better, if that's possible.

And again, it may not sound like it, but I'm on McConnell's side. She made the only decision she could make under the circumstances, given who she is, what her background is, what her overall goals were, etc. Her only mistake (in my view) is holding on to her belief in the validity of behavioral science.

LCK

 I'm curious, LCK, as to what breeds you've worked with. Have you spent a lot of time with the primitive dogs? Particularly the primitive, hairless dogs? Xolos, PIOs, Khalas, old lines of Chinese Crested?

jennie_c_d

Have you spent a lot of time with the primitive dogs? Particularly the primitive, hairless dogs? Xolos, PIOs, Khalas, old lines of Chinese Crested?

I've worked with Chinese crested dogs, yes. I don't know how old their lineages are. I know they had trouble getting along with one another, and that one of them was very spooky: couldn't negotiate stairs, cowered when taken for walks in his NYC neighborhood, wouldn't play, etc.

LCK

 Some lines of Crested are like any other toy breed, and some lines are truly primitive. The more primitive, sighthoundier Cresteds are quite different from your typical dog, which is why I ask. These breeds, in particular, are very much pack oriented, and really are not interested in anything outside of their pack. My Chinese Crested is an unfortunate mishmash of lines, but has a very aloof demeanor. She doesn't dislike you, she just doesn't care whether you exist or not. She isn't afraid, or anxious about strangers (human, dog, cat, ferret, gerbil). She's never aggressive. She just could care less about you if you are not a part of her exclusive club. This is VERY typical of these guys, and I believe of certain sighthounds as well (the bigger hairless kids are classified as sighthounds). I just wondered how you felt about that, since you believe that all dogs inherently love one another.

Lee Charles Kelley

Dogs are the most social animal on the planet. They are genetically engineered to be able to get along with any and all other dogs they meet, anywhere they go. When dogs don't get along, something's wrong, either with the dogs' upbringing, or with their training.

Where does this come from?  Interesting concept, but it appears to be an opinion, not a fact.  Every dog I've had has had likes and dislikes.  The dislikes were usually dogs not in my pack, although Rags and Bear had a go at each other every once in a while.

I would think a more accurate statement would be "dogs are genetically engineered to be able to get along with people. Being from a pack society, they tend to get along with pack members."

Lee Charles Kelley

spiritdogs

So, then, why don't you tell me the "right approach" and I'll email it to Trish.  I'm sure she'd be interested in your perspective.

 

Hi, SpiritDogs,

That's very generous of you. I'm not sure it would be that easy to communicate the information through a second party, though. I'd be happy to talk to her on the phone, or via e-mail, if she's interested.

If she is, you can e-mail me directly and I'll give you my home telephone number, and the best times to reach me.

LCK

Since you are the one making all the suggestions, perhaps you should just go ahead and call her yourself: 608-767-2435

BTW, did it ever occur to you that the reason she might have seemed to have more "success" than Dodman is that he often gets the worst of the worst cases because of his work with psychopharmacology, and because he's associated with a veterinary college?  Your argument smacks of the Pit Bull stats arguments that fail to take into account the current popularity of the breed, and a whole host of other factors, when disseminating information about any aggressive tendencies they may have. 

If Dodman doesn't like dogs, as you have asserted in the past, then why would he bother to show up at a hearing on proposed BSL and take the part of those who were there to insure that breed bans do not get enacted?  Would have been much easier to stay at home with his cats or canaries or whatever you think he does like.  

jennie_c_d

These breeds, in particular, are very much pack oriented, and really are not interested in anything outside of their pack.  I just wondered how you felt about that, since you believe that all dogs inherently love one another.

Hi, Jennie,

Thanks for the clarification.

The fact that all dogs come with an inherent ability to find a harmonic relationship with all other dogs doesn't mean it's going to happen automatically. If you look at what I wrote (and I know that's not easy, since I tend to spew out a lot of material in some of my posts), I said that given enough time, and the proper guidance, that except in the most severe cases of aggression (and sometimes even then), dogs are designed to gravitate more toward group harmony than toward aggression or antipathy.  Certainly, due to what different dogs were bred for, dogs of the more independent breeds may have less of this characteristic. But it's still there in some form.

LCK

spiritdogs

BTW, did it ever occur to you that the reason she might have seemed to have more "success" than Dodman is that he often gets the worst of the worst cases because of his work with psychopharmacology, and because he's associated with a veterinary college? 

If Dodman doesn't like dogs, as you have asserted in the past, then why would he bother to show up at a hearing on proposed BSL and take the part of those who were there to insure that breed bans do not get enacted?  Would have been much easier to stay at home with his cats or canaries or whatever you think he does like.  

Hi, SpiritDogs,

Thanks for the input. I guess I was operating on limited data set when I made that hypothesis years ago. I probably shouldn't even have brought it up again. It was an unnecessary snipe on my part when the issue I was addressing had to do with what I perceive to be Patricia McConnell's genuine, deep love of dogs. However, standing up against unfair legislation doesn't necessarily require someone to have the kind of love for dogs that McConnell does.

Still, you were right to correct me on that issue.

LCK

Exsqueeze me, LCK, but I'm disagreeing on a number of your posts, including this last one, accusing Anne of being snippish.

First, you started this thread with a statement that behavior mod as failed, and/or that Trish has failed or given up hope.

Then you said all dogs are (in so many words) geared to associate with others. Anyone that has owned a dog knows that not always true in practice. Some dogs just don't like other dogs, or more exactly, in certain contexts. Yes, dogs are something of a social animal and can form associations with stranger dogs over their lifetime. This does not mean it always happens, or with each and every dog they meet.

And environmental management is not a failure of behavior mod. It is a result of understanding exactly what is needed and practicing good animal husbandry. If the dogs were left alone in a field and didn't like each other, they would eventually retreat to territories they would establish. So, re-homing is helping to accomplish that very thing and is not a failure, but following the natural order of things if the dogs were out in the wild.

Nor is it giving up hope. And this makes the third dog in her career that has been re-homed. Not too shabby. Of course, she doesn't have a tv show where "failures" are edited out or never shown. I think she was being as boldly honest as she could be, which lends to the scientific credibility of her method. Sometimes the results are not what you expected and you (in general) have to show that, too, otherwise you are trying to fit data to a theory, which is also known as fantasy.

All Anne did was take you to task on some of your statements and positions and I guess that was uncomfortable for you. But she means well and if I know her well enough through this forum, she is legit and by all means, contact Trish and give it your best shot. The rubber meets the road, as it where.

Lee Charles Kelley

Liesje

To be honest I don't want to own dogs that will openly accept ANY and ALL dogs into our home or pack at any time.  Maybe wild dogs are this way but not my domesticated dogs.  The will accept and like who *I* say so and who is a member of our family (canine or human).  All other dogs can be on their way, nothing to see here.  I don't care who says dogs should always do this or that.  My dogs behave exactly as I want and expect them to, with regard to other dogs.

 

Hi Liesje,

Thanks for your comment. I appreciate being able to learn about your point of view.

Actually, I think dogs are driven to make connections with other dogs whenever and wherever possible. Even the most aggressive dog is trying to make a connection, just not a pleasant and harmonious one.

That aside, I'm not expecting you or anyone else to change the way you allow or don't allow your dogs to make social connections. And I totally agree with your statement, "My dogs behave exactly as I want and expect them to, with regard to other dogs." But Patricia McConnell wanted her dogs to get along. So there's a big difference between you you teach your dogs to behave toward strange dogs, and how you might want to find ways for the dogs you have to learn to get along better, if that's possible.

To clarify, I don't really teach my dogs how to behave toward strange dogs, to be honest I don't really care what they really think of strange dogs.  I teach them the level of control I expect from them when we are in public.  I know that my dogs - and all dogs - have different temperaments, different strengths and weaknesses as they pertain to various drives and self-control.  I do not spend months and months trying to turn my dogs into something they are not and never will be.  To me, a dog showing obedience and self-control does not mean that that dog is openly social and accepting of other dogs that might approach. 

I don't need to "find ways for the dogs I have to learn to get along better" because my dogs already get along.  We've never had a fight or even so much as snarking at each other.  I choose my dogs based on what dogs I feel will fit in the pack, I don't just go out and get any dog I want and think I can somehow "train" that dog to be accepting of other dogs and mesh with my pack.  If I don't think a dog will work well in my pack, I just don't get that dog.  The dogs I have currently have always gotten along.  Obviously there were introductory periods but I didn't train my dogs to accept each other.

Lee Charles Kelley

Dogs are the most social animal on the planet. They are genetically engineered to be able to get along with any and all other dogs they meet, anywhere they go. When dogs don't get along, something's wrong, either with the dogs' upbringing, or with their training.

As somebody who has been following Trish's blog for years, and who has been following WIllie's story, along with Hope's, I for one commend her for doing what may be the best thing she could do for both dogs. If I thought that I had a dog that would be better suited to another home, as much as it would pain me to choose that decision, I can only hope that I had the guts to do that, and to be open and honest about it.

To have a dog like Willie, gone from extreme fear-aggression of other dogs to an amazing play-buddy and a great model of how far you can come, and then to regress back to a fearful dog, is something that any responsible person should consider.

It's why rescues will take back poor matches, why breeders *match* puppies to the right families, and why shelters will help people select the *right dog* - because not all dogs fit into lives the same way. Unfortunately it's just not that simple. There's a reason it's called a *match*. Because different dogs are better suited to different lifestyles.

"Listening" to what the dog is telling you, observing interactions to make sure the dogs are compatible with each other (dogs do not have union cards), and managing the environment accordingly, that is true dog "whispering." Not exerting human arrogance with a self-deceiving idea of control. It is, in part, based on the the observed experience that dogs have personalities and likes and dislikes, as opposed to assuming that they are simply mindless automatons responding only to stimuli the way bacteria reacts to reagents in a petri dish.

ron2

Exsqueeze me, LCK, but I'm disagreeing on a number of your posts, including this last one, accusing Anne of being snippish.

All Anne did was take you to task on some of your statements and positions and I guess that was uncomfortable for you. But she means well and if I know her well enough through this forum, she is legit and by all means, contact Trish and give it your best shot. The rubber meets the road, as it where.

Hi,

I think I must've been unclear about something. I never accused Anne of being snippish, I said that I -- me, not SpiritDogs -- had made an unnecessary snipe against Nicholas Dodman, and thanked her for pointing this out to me.

LCK

Kim_MacMillan

To have a dog like Willie, gone from extreme fear-aggression of other dogs to an amazing play-buddy and a great model of how far you can come, and then to regress back to a fearful dog, is something that any responsible person should consider.

Hi, Kim,

You make some good points.

However, from my perspective, when one looks at the reality of this particular situation -- where a dog's fear-related behaviors were "conditioned" out of him, but then resurfaced --  one has to consider the fact (or possibility) that the conditioning didn't "take." If we were talking about the average dog owner, that would be one thing. How could such a person have enough expertise to solve such a seemingly difficult "problem?" But when we're talking about an expert trainer, someone who's at the top of her field, that's another story.

Why didn't the conditioning take?

Because dogs don't actually learn through +R (neither does any other animal, including human beings). All animals learn through the reduction of their internal tension and stress. If that reduction of stress happens to coincide with a word of praise, a click from a clicker, or liver snack, that's fine. If, however, you've spent all this work "fixing" the dog and the dog reverts back, you can a) start over and hope for the best, b) label it "juvenile onset shyness," as if that will change anything, c) target the other dog as the cause of the behavior (even though the other dog wasn't around initially,) and remove him from the situation, or d) you can re-think, re-examine, and re-evaluate the effectiveness of your training paradigm.

Anyway, that's how I see it,

LCK