How Frustrating

stardog85

(For the nth time: Delta *does* register dogs (and other animals) with disabilities!)

I really think that this depends on the evaluator.  I have personally seen two dogs, who train at our club, be refused evaluations because of disabilities.  The evaluator's exact words were "we don't test dogs with disabilities because they are too big of a risk."  One of the dogs was a deaf boxer.  The other was a shih tzu who had lost an eye.  Both owners contacted Delta Society about this issue, & both were essentially blown off.  They both got the obligatory "We're sorry that happened.  We will investigate it." response, & nothing more.  Follow up emails have been ignored.  Both dogs are now certified through TDI.

stardog85

Ethically I could not allow myself to feed raw to my therapy dog if there was the slightest chance that doing so would result in illness to the very people I'm trying to help

You might want to stop making therapy visits until your dog has been tested to make sure that she's not an asymptomatic carrier.  Apparently, it's more common that one would think...

stardog85

Studies:

Joffe, D. J., & Schlesinger, D. P. (2002). Preliminary assessment of the
risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets. Canadian
Veterinary Journal, 43, 441-442.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/

From the results section:

From the results of this limited study, a BARF diet is significantly more likely than a commercial diet to contain Salmonella spp. (P < 0.001), and BARF-fed dogs are more likely than commercially fed dogs to shed Salmonella spp. in their stools (P = 0.105). 

 Evaluation of the Risks of Shedding Salmonellae and Other Potential Pathogens by Therapy Dogs Fed Raw Diets in Ontario and Alberta http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121395591/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

The incidence rate of Salmonella shedding in the raw meat-fed dogs was 0.61 cases/dog-year, compared with 0.08 cases/dog-year in dogs that were not fed raw meat (P < 0.001). Controlling for therapy dog group, the repeated measures, and pig ear consumption and diarrhoea in the 2 months prior to specimen submission, dogs that consumed raw meat were significantly more likely to test positive for Salmonellaat least once during the year than dogs that did not eat raw meat [odds ratio (OR) 22.7; 95% confidence interval (CI) 3.1–58.8; P < 0.001]. Specific Salmonella serovars were more common among dogs that consumed raw meat versus those that did not include S. Typhimurium, S. Heidelberg and S. Kentucky. Raw meat consumption was also significantly associated with shedding ESC E. coli (OR 17.2; 95% CI 9.4–32.3). No associations between C. difficile, MRSA or VRE and consumption of raw meat were detected.

I think that this is the most important info from that study...

Ten client-owned dogs fed a homemade BARF diet and 10 client-owned dogs (controls) fed various commercial dry dog foods were enrolled in the study.

 Although these results are suggestive, they are not statistically significant owing to the small number of dogs studied. Larger numbers of dogs or multiple stool samples from each dog might have allowed the results to reach statistical significance.

This study took 10 raw dogs, 10 kibble dogs, & 1 stool sample per dog, to come up with results that even they say are not statistically significant.  I'm not sure that it would be the study that Delta Society should be basing their decision on.  But, maybe, that's just me.

On a good note, the hospital that we visit contacted me today to let me know that, effective June 15, they will be using TDI teams instead of Delta teams for their visits. 

(For the nth time: Delta *does* register dogs (and other animals) with disabilities!)

I believe that someone said they used to discriminate, not necessarily that they do it now.  But, to be honest, I think that some exceptional therapy dogs would not be working in this field if they had tried to test with what we laughingly call the therapy dog *** (I guess you can't say the word that described Hitler's legions here.).  They do not accept Schutzhund or similarly trained dogs.  One of the sweetest and best therapy dogs I know is a past competitor in PSA events.  If you think about it, to the dog, the bite on a sleeve is the same as the bite on a rope tug.  At least a trained dog outs on command!  So, I guess my hound should retire as a therapy dog because he likes to tug his rope and sometimes wants to hold on longer than he should so that Sequoyah won't be able to steal it. 

I'm rather fortunate here, because most facilities do see the benefit of therapy dogs, and they also are willing to converse on an intelligent level about infection control and zoonoses. 

BEVOLASVEGAS

On a good note, the hospital that we visit contacted me today to let me know that, effective June 15, they will be using TDI teams instead of Delta teams for their visits.

So does that mean Bevo can go???  Switching from Delta to TDI is good for you, right??

calliecritturs

So does that mean Bevo can go???  Switching from Delta to TDI is good for you, right??

Yeah, it's great for us.  Both dogs are both certified through both groups, so it's no big deal.  I have always prefered TDI.  I only added the Delta certification so that we could visit the children's hospital.  I was estatic to get the news.

spiritdogs

They do not accept Schutzhund or similarly trained dogs.  One of the sweetest and best therapy dogs I know is a past competitor in PSA events.  If you think about it, to the dog, the bite on a sleeve is the same as the bite on a rope tug.  At least a trained dog outs on command!

Don't want to get too off topic but this is so absolutely not true (unless you work in defense/civil when playing tug with your own dog) it needs to be called out, but yes it is still ridiculous that they make blanket discrimination.

HAPPY Dance!!  GO guys, go!!!

  My experience with my local Delta group is that they have a very elitist attitude and that Delta stands behind them, no matter what they say/do. I once went to a Delta test because the place I used to work was wanting to get into Delta therapy stuff, so the employees and a handful of interested clients went through the testing process.

 Bevo would never have passed this group's test because they don't believe Dobes can be good Therapy Dogs. They failed the Dobe mix in our group because her owner touched her when giving the Stay command. They made comments that Dobes aren't really cut out for Therapy work. Delta didn't seem concerned about their attitude.

 A little girl was taking her Corgi through the testing with her mother and they had planned on visiting as a team. The group would not even test them because the child was going to be along for the visits. They would not test the dog with the mother and child or just the mother. The child was very discouraged and couldn't understand why her dog couldn't take the test after they had worked so hard. Delta didn't seem concerned about that either.

 All in all, this group found a reason to either not test or to fail every single dog from our group. And Delta stood behind them.

  During the same test, a couple I knew had their two dogs there to be tested. One had a Newf and one had a Chow-y looking mix. The group LOVED the Newfie and she passed easily. When the Chow mix was brought in, the testers didn't realize the owners were together and commented to the Newf's handler that they don't know why someone with a Chow would even try to get the dog certified for Therapy work and even if the dog tested ok, some breeds just don't make good Therapy dogs. Delta again, didn't seem concerned.

  This group has had a policy against testing or allowing raw fed dogs for probably 10 years or more. I had assumed that Delta has had this policy for that long as well but it sounds like it was just made official?

 I personally wouldn't suggest visiting without certification because the certification usually offers some sort of insurance if some injury were to happen due to your dog. TDI seems to be a much more reasonable organization.

The local Delta group would *not* test Muffin b/c he was deaf (bi-lateral ear ablations) even though he knew about 50 ASL signs at the time (and was already working as a therapy dog).  They wouldn't allow touch signs.

Then they found out that *I* am somewhat handicapped and would need to bring my chair with me and the woman's comment was "we see 240 patients in 3 hours ... now HOW are you going to keep up with us??"

That was enough for me.  They pretty well allow local groups to be autonomous.  Which is where everyone gets such a bad taste in their mouth. 

I have to say I'm appalled at the stories about Delta groups - if anything in this area Delta evaluators seem to be too lenient (especially about the neutral dog section) on evals.  I attended training to become an evaluator about 18 months ago and none of the stuff you guys have experienced are official Delta policy. 

It does truly concern me that complaints have gone unacknowledged.  I think I may have to call Delta and get some info on what happens with complaints.

If any of you came to evaluate with me, you can be sure that I'd follow the real rules about animals and handlers with limitations, openness to all breeds, etc. and I'm so sorry that you've had to deal with crap from evaluators who are so inappropriate.  I certainly don't blame you for not liking the organization after those issues, though it does make me quite sad to hear an organization I've had nothing but good dealings with disparaged due to the actions of a few.

Liesje

spiritdogs

They do not accept Schutzhund or similarly trained dogs.  One of the sweetest and best therapy dogs I know is a past competitor in PSA events.  If you think about it, to the dog, the bite on a sleeve is the same as the bite on a rope tug.  At least a trained dog outs on command!

 

Don't want to get too off topic but this is so absolutely not true (unless you work in defense/civil when playing tug with your own dog) it needs to be called out, but yes it is still ridiculous that they make blanket discrimination.

Picky, picky.  

Just meant that a bite is a bite in the sense that the dog is just using his jaws on an object that he doesn't want to let go of.  An average pet will keep tugging if the owner has not taught a good enough "out" but the trained dog should "out" immediately on cue. 

AgileGSD

   Bevo would never have passed this group's test because they don't believe Dobes can be good Therapy Dogs.

.....

When the Chow mix was brought in, the testers didn't realize the owners were together and commented to the Newf's handler that they don't know why someone with a Chow would even try to get the dog certified for Therapy work and even if the dog tested ok, some breeds just don't make good Therapy dogs. Delta again, didn't seem concerned.

I had been told, by a previous Delta Society member who's dog partner was a Rottweiler, that Delta pretty near patently refused pit bull-types to pass.  I haven't found anything in their current literature that says they specifically exclude these "breed types", but there was enough negative feedback in my area that I chose to have Gracie certified through TDI. 

PS, anyone on Cape Cod (Massachusetts) who wants to go through a good TDI class, check out Gina Lyn Hayes: http://www.massachusettsdogtrainer.com/  She does workshops throughout New England.

spiritdogs

Liesje

spiritdogs

They do not accept Schutzhund or similarly trained dogs.  One of the sweetest and best therapy dogs I know is a past competitor in PSA events.  If you think about it, to the dog, the bite on a sleeve is the same as the bite on a rope tug.  At least a trained dog outs on command!

 

Don't want to get too off topic but this is so absolutely not true (unless you work in defense/civil when playing tug with your own dog) it needs to be called out, but yes it is still ridiculous that they make blanket discrimination.

 

Picky, picky.  

Just meant that a bite is a bite in the sense that the dog is just using his jaws on an object that he doesn't want to let go of.  An average pet will keep tugging if the owner has not taught a good enough "out" but the trained dog should "out" immediately on cue. 

Picky, yes, but it's a very important distinction, maybe not to you but it is nonetheless.  Actually in SchH a dog outs when the helper "locks up" (same way a pet dog will eventually get bored with a tug toy that has been completely immobilized).  For a correctly-tempered dog, it's often something that requires very little training.  Once the dog understands how protection works, only then the outs are introduced and many dogs do them clean in one or two sessions.  There is very, very little carry over from teaching outs/drop it during tugging and play.  I have always had an out problem with Nikon's ball and do not have an out problem in protection.  Police dogs often require "manual" outs since their purpose is to subdue the criminal no matter what once the dog has been sent, the dog should *not* release if the person locks up or commands the dog himself (sort of like how when an LEO fires the weapon he fires to kill, not aiming to just nick or injure someone...once the bridge is crossed there's no going back).  So far, PSA is the only sport I've encountered where the dog is required to out when a fight is still happening, but in general PSA requires an insane level of obedience and control.  Not sure about Ring.

 There are *no* breed restrictions of any sort in the Delta evaluation procedures.  If someone is saying that there are it's an individual evaluator issue.  I'd report them to Delta if it were me, though if they aren't responding to some of the stuff mentioned above (i.e. serious problems) I can understand not going that far.

 Agile, while I agree that it is safer to be certified, the only local trainer who did certs refused to take GSDs, and the closest place that would was over 4 hours away.  I had looked into a trainer in Panama City, which is still an hour away, but then the roof caved in on the employment situation so that's on hold.  At some point I will get Tyler certified since he loves being around old folks so very much.

stardog85

I have to say I'm appalled at the stories about Delta groups - if anything in this area Delta evaluators seem to be too lenient (especially about the neutral dog section) on evals.  I attended training to become an evaluator about 18 months ago and none of the stuff you guys have experienced are official Delta policy. 

It does truly concern me that complaints have gone unacknowledged.  I think I may have to call Delta and get some info on what happens with complaints.

  To be fair, my experience with my local Delta club was probably around 02. One of my 4Hers certified her dog through them and joined their group more recently, so they have apparently changed their views on the child issue.

  My main issue was that Delta seemed to have an attitude that their evaluators were free to do whatever they felt was best, even when it was reflecting poorly on the whole organization. 

 I never agreed with the raw feeding thing either (like I said I thought this has long been their policy) and have felt that someone at Delta was just pushing their own agenda with that. I feel the same way about the organization's stand on accepting ferrets - they feel ferrets are "wild animals" and as such, can't be evaluated for Therapy work. At the same time they accept parrots without issue. The type of ferrets kept as pets is a fully domesticated animal, which is not found found in the wild. Parrots are actually not domesticated - the same types of parrots you find for sale in petstores are still found in the wild.

stardog85

If any of you came to evaluate with me, you can be sure that I'd follow the real rules about animals and handlers with limitations, openness to all breeds, etc. and I'm so sorry that you've had to deal with crap from evaluators who are so inappropriate.  I certainly don't blame you for not liking the organization after those issues, though it does make me quite sad to hear an organization I've had nothing but good dealings with disparaged due to the actions of a few.

 I'm sure it's like anything - some people take it seriously and some don't. I'm a CGC evaluator and I have been extremely disappointed to find that how many CGC evaluators are willing to pass just about anything.