Guess who's staying around for a while

    • Gold Top Dog

    denise m

    spiritdogs
    Just curious, how would you feel if CM had a change of heart and revamped his style?  He would certainly not be the first person to have done that. 

     

    I know this question was directed to espencer but I would have to say having watched CM's show for many years now, he has revamped his style IMO. Now it may well be the type of dog issues he features now are less 'red zone' and more main stream requiring a less aggressive approach. I have seen him use very 'positive' training techniques with some of his clients -  ie pocket full of treats!  I personally found his early episodes more entertaining than practical, probably because I was never dealing with a dangerous or aggressive dog. Now I feel he offers some good insight and practical solutions for the more common run of the mill doggy problems. I am not a 'follower' of any one trainer or philosophy. I think one can learn something from all of them and hopefully they can learn from each other as well.

    Anne, I would be interested in your response to the same question regarding some of the Positive Only trainers. 

    Well, since I just revamped my own adolescent dog manners classes, I can tell you that positive trainers change methods and style all the time, but they generally do so within the parameters that others here have suggested.  That means that they try to do no harm, they try to use the least invasive most minimally aversive training methods they can, and they try to think outside the box as to what motivators they can enlist to interest the dog they are working with.  If Jean Donaldson suddenly started using shock collars, I would not support that, and would be as anti-Jean as I am anti-Cesar.  I'm sorry, but even when you use punishment, I think that the AVSAB guidelines make more sense than some which are purported to "work."  One of the reasons that positive trainers are positive is that they have witnessed the "fallout of coercion" to borrow a phrase from the book of the same name (which is a good read for anyone interested in learning about that) and have decided that what they now do makes more sense.  The bottom line is that it is also supported by science.  My question abouit how people would feel if CM changed his style is more because I feel that they are following with blind devotion, rather than investigating the methods based on any scientific experimentation.  When I ask people who follow him to provide scientific documentation for the method they think is working, they don't have much to say.  I'm more than happy to consider the validity of peer reviewed legitimate studies that support what CM does if you can give me the citations.  Thus far, both I and a FB friend of mine have requested them, but no one has been forthcoming...

    • Gold Top Dog

    stardog85

    Paige is spot on.

    I'm happy in a twisted sort of way.  This development could very well result in more clients for me - very important when one is starting a new business after a move. Wink

    I think you are spot on.  If it gets me biz, it should get you biz, too.  Good luck and happy profits!

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    My question abouit how people would feel if CM changed his style is more because I feel that they are following with blind devotion,

     

    And I thought you were genuinely interested.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    denise m
    And I thought you were genuinely interested.

    I agree, i thought that we were making some progress here

    spiritdogs
    When I ask people who follow him to provide scientific documentation for the method they think is working, they don't have much to say. I'm more than happy to consider the validity of peer reviewed legitimate studies that support what CM does if you can give me the citations.

    Do you want it by PM? Because that would be off topic from this thread

    • Gold Top Dog
    I am. If you have peer reviewed studies that support any or all of his methods, feel free to PM me or start a thread so we can all see them.  I'm not opposed to changing my mind on anything, but not just for the sake of changing it - I'd simply like to see evidence that the methods are effective and do no harm to the dog.  What I am not interested in is more youtube videos of dogs who are supposedly rehabilitated.  Peer reviewed studies, please.
    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    feel free to PM me or start a thread so we can all see them.

    Good idea - espence is right that we don't want to derail this thread.  Thanks guys!
    • Gold Top Dog

    glenmar

    It is my impression that the BEST trainers have all the tools in their toolboxes but choose to use the "gentlest" methods first??  Perhaps I've misunderstood, but as positive as Anne is, there was not one word of disguist or disappointment in me for using a prong on Thor.

     

    I think so too. We should exhaust reinforcement strategies and extinction when possible before we add a punishment component. Note that I say add, not replace, or to use solely, a punishment component.