"Aggressive" dogs

I am curious -- for the folks who look at this from the textbook, training/behavior perspective, how do you account for dogs like pit bulls (or my Rosco) who do show that natural DA with strange dogs and no other types of aggression under any circumstances?

For Rosco, the urge to fight comes as naturally as Luna wanting to herd. Both are controlled through training, but I have a hard time reconciling that something like real DA can be worked with the same way you can work with a dog who responds aggressively when scared or guarding a resource.

How does that gets worked into the equation, or is it just thrown out because "behavior is just behavior" and you go from there.

 I hope someone responds I think that is a very interesting question.

OT  (Lies Bugsy is not submissive but prior to this dog lunging, growling and barking in his face he never showed anything other than calm or play.  For instance we walked near the lake today and an idiot owner had their dog off leash and the dog came charging at us, he just waited for it, she submitted to him almost instantly and then they wanted to play)

 Liesje, all good points.  I do not believe that dogs who use distance increasing signals or who use an aggressive display to tell others to back off are being inappropriate.  In fact, they are using aggression in a *normal* way - why bite when a growl will do, basically, and then go from there.  I've always said dogs pick their own friends.  My Sequoyah loves a particular Rottie and Chocolate Lab, and willingly lets either of them come up to me for a snuggle.  There are other dogs that can't get within ten feet of me or she goes out to "police" them away.  She does not like a forward physical play style and will not engage in it.  Woe betide the dog who thinks he can mount her because she will have none of it.  However, she does not want to kill every dog that she meets;-)

Rosco, FWIW, looks like he has some AmStaff or Pit in him, so DA would not be totally unexpected.  You can train a dog to pay attention to you, rather than focus on other things, but in the case of truly aggressive dogs, safety would dictate that you *also* manage them by insuring that they are safely contained, on lead, or out of harm's way, in any circumstance that could lead to the dog making a mistake.  Any time you are dealing with hard wiring, it's best to remember that it's there;-)

 Thanks Anne. I totally agree about Mr. Rosco. That's why we put so much into his training and management. He's my first pit and probably my last because of the DA. I'd rather not ever have to deal with that again if I can help it. Plus, there is only one Rosco, and I don't think it would be fair to have a second pit down the road b/c somewhere in my heart I'd always be comparing them.

Back on Topic: 

For clients who come to you with dogs like Rosco, do you do anything in addition to what you mentioned above? Do you feel like behavior modification exercises work on hard wiring problems? That's where I am getting confused. I've always felt like once you reach hard wiring it's a matter of training and management, and am curious if you think there are other things that can be done.

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

I am curious -- for the folks who look at this from the textbook, training/behavior perspective, how do you account for dogs like pit bulls (or my Rosco) who do show that natural DA with strange dogs and no other types of aggression under any circumstances?

I think it's a great question. Aggression is generally broken down into different categories. It's not a blanket statement, which is why the term "aggressive dog" is inappropriate as the type of aggression a dog exhibits is quite important. Dogs tend to be aggressive for one (or several) specific reasons. There could be maternal aggression, fear aggression, social aggression (what some call dominance aggression), territorial or barrier aggression, defensive aggression, and to be honest there is a form of aggressive tendencies in some lines of dogs that were bred for those traits.

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

but I have a hard time reconciling that something like real DA can be worked with the same way you can work with a dog who responds aggressively when scared or guarding a resource.

Well you really do work with it in pretty much the same way, the perspective one has to take though is that you have to take into account how permanent the training will be. The quality of DA in a dog like a Pitty is similar to the quality of hunting in a Beagle, or the vermin-seeking of a terrier, similar to the herding trait in a herding dog. It's not that you don't work with it in the same way, it's that chances are for really hardwired behaviours (those generated more by genetics than by learning) the reliability factor is where anybody gets stuck, and that's where the issue of trust comes in. It's why some folks never let their Beagles off leash, why some folks never let their terrier or sighthound out of a fenced area, and why most Pitties cannot socialize with every dog they see. There are some thing you can't just "train out".

It's not even that there is a "dog aggression" gene that pops on during maturity in Pitties. What has happened is that there has been a selection of OTHER genes selected for that unfortunately adds up to a high probability of dog aggression occurring. In terms of selection for traits, it is these factors that are the root:
- Poor impulse control
- Highly emotional (most terriers are)
- Quick to act without thinking
- Tenacious, dedicated to the cause
- Easily aroused
- Control is important

If you add those factors up, that summation is what ends up leading to the overall probability of aggression. And it is these factors that start to drastically change between 18 months to 3 years of age. Most DA reported in Pitties begins around this age, it's actually normal for Pitties to grow up with other dogs in a normal fashion, playing with others as youngsters, and then "one day" start not only not tolerating other dogs, but instigating fights as well. Just as some dogs find certain types of play reinforcing, some dogs find the adrenaline rush of a fight highly reinforcing and rewarding.

The methods used to work on those behaviours are pretty much the same no matter the root cause (within reason, there are obviously some modifications per dog as all dogs are different - there is no one size fits all). Where you have to be careful is to think about the reliability that you can achieve in changing those behaviours permanently. Realistically, there is a "ceiling" that any dog can reach in terms of potential and how far learning can really go, and hardwired behaviours are the hardest to change. Try all I might, I can train a terrier to leave a free bird alone while I'm there, and even have control while I'm giving the dog a job to do, but there's a good chance I can never let my guard down or expect that one day the dog will permanently change away from being, well, a terrier!! It's the same with a Pittie - you can likely train a dog to coexist with other dogs peacefully while you are there, in control, and giving the dog a job to do, but it doesn't mean you are going to see very many Pitties in doggy daycare or running free at the dog park. And there's a good reason for that.

However, it doesn't mean that your Pittie can't be expected to act in a neighbourly manner when out and about. That is where the importance of the cause of the aggression loses its strength. Even if a Pitty does engage in DA when it comes into physical contact with another dog, there are many things you can work on to avoid that from happening. Ironically, Pitties are not the only high DA-known breed. They are terriers, and there are many other terriers that live quite the same way that Pitties do, and have the same traits. They just aren't as big and you don't hear about them in the media. Fox terriers have huge DA problems, and it is known that some litters have to be separated at as young as seven weeks of age because aggression within a litter can start that young. Manchesters can be similar, and even Schnauzers carry those traits. So Pitties aren't alone when it comes to some severe DA as a common trait (and believe me, I have a female terrier who is quite tenacious!!).

But you work on things that you would work on with any dog - eye contact, focus, turning away from other dogs, recall work, you can use CAT (a specific form of behaviour mod for aggression), desensitization, counter conditioning, and routines (the sight of another dog is a cue to perform some other behaviour).

I say this because I have a dog whose first response to strange dogs (and known female dogs) used to be always approach and bite first, ask questions later. She is a terrier. It took a lot of work, but this dog does now work offleash around other dogs in agility, and can choose alternative behaviours when confronted by another dog. She does not go to dog parks, or socialize with strange dogs, she doesn't interact on her own with other dogs at agility, but she does have skills in which she has learned to choose over fighting. She even can go on larger pack walks with a group of seven dogs (my three, and a friend's four) and can be in peace without instigating problems. Especially for dogs who find fighting reinforcing, you really have to work at it, but it can be done. Is it 100%? I don't think you can reach 100% with these kinds of dogs, it is a lifetime job, but I know for us personally we haven't had a bite to another dog in over two years now. To the point even where when I was fostering a Staffy mix that would try to instigate play with her, and rather than aggress towards him, as she once would have chosen, she would actually come find me and stare holes into my soul. She's tense as a board, her eyes are rock hard, but those eyes are on me with a clear message - "Mom, I can't handle him much longer, please step in". And I do, and she gets rewarded up the ying yang for it.

You can build skills in dogs that simply "want to fight", you just have to know what skills to build and how to build those skills. But the underlying methods (classical conditioning and operant conditioning) are not that different than working with other types of aggression. But in the end, you are building skills so the dog is able to coexist in society, it still doesn't mean the dog will ever be able to play with other dogs much like a Lab or a Shih Tzu may. You really can only go so far before you hit that ceiling and you can train out genetics, and that is where management comes in to play. Gaci for instance will never really like other dogs, I do believe she has reached as far as her genetics will allow, and if I let down our work and routines she would likely go back to the way that she was, and even now she's not 100%, once in a while she will lock on to another dog at a distance and I will have to intervent and break her focus so that I can redirect her and remind her that she has other options. In the end, once you've reached that level, all that's left is acceptance of what your dog is, and what your dog isn't, and to realize that you can not change everything about a dog, and that you sometimes just have to work with the dog that you have.

Hmm, new Firefox seems to dislike forums.

I just said that I agreed with Kim and just wanted to add that "aggressive" is an adjective, which means it can be used to describe something specific like a behaviour, or something general like a person. 

I have met one dog I would describe as aggressive because he behaved aggressively a lot of the time. It was quite tragic, as he started from a very early age (8 weeks) in spite of only positive training methods and plenty of early socialisation. He just defaulted to aggressive behaviour whenever he was nervous, and he was nervous in the presence of anything he hadn't seen before, and most things he had seen before and been previously nervous about. If he got aggressive about something once it would get added to the list of things he needed to be aggressive about all the time. It was like walking a tight rope with him. He would inevitably meet something new with aggression and once he'd done that he would do it every other time. He was a very unhappy, frightened dog.

All I can say is that, on this thread, I'm just going to let Kim make my responses.

Today, I did a consultation with a lady who owns a Border Collie that is starting, at age 7 months, to display some owner-directed aggression (really, it's displaced herding behaviors).  So, the advice that I gave her included some ways in which she could satisfy the dog's herding instinct, keep him mentally occupied, and redirect him to a task (the "they need a job" thing is true).  Had the dog been aggressive in another way, the advice would have fit the type of aggression I was witnessing (predatory, territorial, maternal, fear, etc.)  But, my overriding concern is to have people be aware that it is a must to manage as well, because aggression never really goes away - it's always there, ready for the dog to use, if the circumstances warrant (to the dog, that is).

spiritdogs

All I can say is that, on this thread, I'm just going to let Kim make my responses.

 But, my overriding concern is to have people be aware that it is a must to manage as well, because aggression never really goes away - it's always there, ready for the dog to use, if the circumstances warrant (to the dog, that is).

OK, thanks. That is what I was wondering about, and what I had thought. To Kim's points -- really well explained! We do all the training and management with Rosco. I just used what he would do if there was no training or management in place as an example of what that type of aggression looks likes. Hope folks don't think I let him rock around being a total jerk to every dog he sees!

Thanks folks!
 

spiritdogs

 Aggression occurs on a continuum and it just depends where the individual dog's threshold is.  Even the placid Lab we have at play group reacted with a growl when a rude young Akita attempted to mount him.  He lets other dogs do it, but that dog had ill intent, and the Lab knew it.  So, he handled it.  Granted, no teeth, but if the rude boy hadn't listened, the ante would have been raised, for sure, and this is a dog that is so mellow he lets multiple puppies, adolescents, and even my Sequoyah, take his stuff, climb on him, hump him, whatevahhhh.  His threshold is very high and hard to reach.  My herder?  Not so much - she wouldn't tolerate too long of a butt sniff from a whippersnapper like that.

You know, Jack will take a LOT from other dogs.  He will tolerate Sally taking stuff he is chewing on right out of his mouth, tolerate pushy puppies, resource guarding bullies at the park, crabby dogs, mannerless dogs, etc.  In his 3 1/2 years, I have seen him on *one* occasion stop "taking it."  We were at the park and there was a woman with a female GSD.  The GSD clearly had no business there--she was only concerned about her person and about maintaining an ever changing perimeter around said person by charging at other dogs who came too close and snarking at them. 

After being charged at a few times and doing avoidance/calming maneuvers (we would think were were far enough away but then the owner would move or the GSD would wander too far and decide that any dog close to her was too close to her person), rather than avoid her the final time she charged him Jack turned and showed her his teeth.  It was only for a second or two--quick enough that if I had not been looking right at his face at that moment I would have missed it, but she backed off immediately and didn't bother him again.  He went on about his business like nothing happened.  I have no idea what made him at that moment decide that this particular dog needed to be sent that message, but it worked and he hasn't done it since...

spiritdogs

because aggression never really goes away - it's always there, ready for the dog to use, if the circumstances warrant (to the dog, that is).

If this was true then "shut down" dogs would never exist. No wonder why some trainers handle every single dog with "silk gloves" and go to work with a constant fear that the dog they work with might show aggression at some point.

If that statement it's true then we can change the word "aggression" with the words: fear, anxiety, dominance, avoidance, excitement, etc.

If that statement it's true then every dog can be classified as an aggressive-fearful-anxious-dominant-excited-avoidant dog, all of those behaviors are always there, ready for the dog to use, if the circumstances warrant

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espencer

No wonder why some trainers handle every single dog with "silk gloves" and go to work with a constant fear that the dog they work with might show aggression at some point.

  I have no fear that a dog I'm working with will become aggressive and therefore must be handled with silk gloves.  I have no fear of correcting a dog but I don't use corrections when they have not been proven effective for dealing with aggression.   Proven not just in scientific journals and papers but in my own personal experience.  You may have had different experiences but at some point dealing with aggression using punishment will bite you in the a$$. 

JackieG

I have no fear that a dog I'm working with will become aggressive and therefore must be handled with silk gloves.

But not every single dog needs to be handled that way to avoid the aggressiveness coming out. If a dog is excited and jumps on people i dont think aggressiveness has to do with anything and you should handle the dog as aggressive just because "it could come out"

espencer

But not every single dog needs to be handled that way to avoid the aggressiveness coming out. If a dog is excited and jumps on people i dont think aggressiveness has to do with anything and you should handle the dog as aggressive just because "it could come out"

JackieG

at some point dealing with aggression using punishment will bite you in the a$$. 

I dunno, again I think it really depends on what is being labelled "agression" and why.   I do a lot of training with Nikon on a broad spectrum of techniques and tools, some punishment, and have not had problems (though I know plenty of other people who have had their dogs start growling at them or other people inappropriately).  I think Kenya would be far more likely to bite me because of her nerves, she has a lower threshold which sends her into a "fight or flight" response and I can't claim she would never snap (literally).  But I don't see that as aggression, whereas Nikon really is aggressive and yet is quite handler sensitive with me.  Perhaps the key is that I'm not "dealing with the aggression" as in trying to make it extinct.  The dog aggression is basically managed.  Other dogs are not allowed to charge up to him and if they do, the trainer will ask that person to leave, or we will find another trainer/club where the dogs are focused and under control.  The human aggression is something that only comes out when a true threat is present.

I agree, Liesje that it depends on a person's definition of aggression and where and under what circumstances the "aggression" occurs.  Aggression is just another dog emotion (as others have stated so well)  and it has a purpose or it would have been extinguished by natural selection.  "Aggression" is a problem for many dog owners because they don't know how to interpret what they see and often correct inappropriately.  I have interacted with many different dogs of all breeds and at all levels of training.  Very rarely have I seen a dog I was truly worried would bite me.  But that's because I had no intention of challenging the dog or putting the dog in a position to feel the need to bite me.  I have been bitten by dogs but it was always my fault for not recognizing the warnings being given by the dog or it was my poor hand placement that caused me to be bit. I was never involved in behavioral type training.

I do believe that aggression (that results in injury) toward other dogs, especially housemates, and aggression toward people needs to be addressed.  It's always going to be an individual, case by case situation that can't be dealt with in a general discussion other than offering broad suggestions and referring to a behaviorist that handles aggression cases.