Dogs, humans and hierarchies.

Did I ask that already... If you believe that a you should be your dogs' Leader, you must believe that he will be a follower - that's a rank right there.

The kind of dominance behaviour you're thinking of, like dictating when and where a lower ranking member may move, well, why would that occur? From behavioural ecology theory, it may occur as a form of nagging, or it may even be a form of conditioning. But I'm not ready to believe it has no purpose other than to create rank.

The purpose of controlling the movement of pack members is not to create a rank, but to exercise influence and control. When a dog sits on a couch and growls at his human family member - he is not doing it to because he believe he is alpha. Dogs can self-reflect on their rank in a group in comparison to others. All they know is that they've managed to get it their way one time before that, and the time before that, and they've made decision on resolving situation X, and they've initiated situation Y. It's us who invented the concept of dominance to describe what they do. But, dominance/submission relationships are learned. Tendencies to dominate are learned and given (nature and nurture... probably genetic mainly). That's what we call dominance.

Ah... I am lost now. what was the question? [][]

ORIGINAL: Chuffy


This stems, I think from the dogs earliest roots, where for survival it was necessary to be in packs and for the oack to be successful there had to be an order.  These days, packing is no longer necessary, resources are plentiful, but when groups are formed, there is an instinctive shuffle to find your social standpoint.  It's almost reflexive.  It doesnt matter that this has not been necessary for  a long time.  From an individuals point of view, anything that doesn't work extinguishes.  From an evolutionary point of view, anything that doesn't do any harm sticks around even if not needed.

I certainly agree with that, and I guess this is one of those things I think are useful to study wolves to help us understand dogs. My confusion lies in the fact that a dog who will shuffle with other dogs for a little bit won't shuffle with any humans, but appears to assume they are all demi-gods.

As to why your dog doesn't seem to include you in a hierarchy..... language can be very subtle.  It may well be she is including you but isn't being that obvious about it because she doesn't need to be.  She sounds like a normal socially well adjusted well balanced dog.  The same goes for other humans.... perhpas she just isn't being obvious about it.  Or, perhaps she sees strangers as being so neutral and having no impact on her that there is no point trying to establish a social standing with them - whats the point in trying to establish social standing with a Blob?

Well, yes, language is subtle, and if I could learn that look of Penny's that apparently says "Go sit under the bushes and stay there until I say you can move.", I'd be pretty happy. [] On the other hand, though, some language is not so subtle and I can at least tell when something is being said and the general gist of it. My reasoning is, if I can identify behaviours in my dog that appear to be part of social shuffling and working out where everyone stands, why do I only see those behaviours directed towards dogs? Whether it's subtle or obvious, wouldn't the same behaviours be repeated regardless of species?

And then we get back to the strange dogs on neutral territory. If you're going to assume strange people on your home turf are neutral, why not assume strange dogs on neutral territory are too neutral to bother with? Sometimes they might just swing by and say hello, and in those cases my dog might simply exchange sniffes and move on, giving the appearance of neutrality. But then I think, humans nearly always pay attention to her, and if they ignore her, she sets about winning them over with charm. Perhaps the real reason why I never see her challenge a human is that she's simply learnt that charm is a wonderfully effective way to get good things from people and it was so effective she never bothered to try anything else. Perhaps that's what most dogs discover.

Now I just have to work out whether there's a pack structure or not. []