Eight Rules for Punishment (and why we shouldn't use them)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    Yeah, for my dog it's actually a LOT more stressful and causes much more anxiety.   I can even make a video to "prove" it, lol!

     

     

    One of the problems with Aversives is that the type that works and the intensity that works vaires form dog to dog. We know that, it is also well documented. 

    Cadbury was nearly immune to physcial Aversives, i broke correction collars on him

    Luci is a very well contained little madam thank you, but does respond to TO's. I have had to use very few in her life. I have more withdrawn poetintial reward such as walked out of a ring in the middle of an excercise where she ws choosing to work the birds rather than the seekback article.

    Sam is possibly quite pain tolerant. He doesn't notice much. TOs are very effective with im.

    It is normal for humans to seek the R+ that they get from an Aversive again and again, but most aversives habituate with too much use. Aagin this is well documented

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    poodleOwned

    One of the problems with Aversives is that the type that works and the intensity that works vaires form dog to dog. We know that, it is also well documented. 

     

    Definitely.   I don't see why people cannot agree with this, regardless of how they train.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Since Steve White came out with them, and he has been around a while and highly succesful and i am a huge fan of his tracking methods and it is Christmas I reckon you should just agree and get on on with it:))))))))

    One thing i never get... i have  put up a thread  on three different ways of training your dogs  using rewards and got 10 replies. Why oh why if punishment is such a small part of our methods do we spend so much time talking about it? Does it fascinate us or do we actually spend a whole lot more  time that we say?

     

     

     

     

    • Bronze

    Liesje
    I'm with PoodleOwned, there's a continuum.  

     

    I never said there wasn't, and I practically said that in different words! I am not grouping ALL people who use corrections into one group. I give up though, you aren't getting it.

    • Bronze

    espencer

    Ok here it's the video. The issue was that my dog was literally diving for everything that could fall on the kitchen's floor and eat it. It was so bad that if you were able to step on the piece of food he would actually nip at your shoe for you to release it and growl (forget about even reach it with your hand). It was always a competition to see who would get it first. I tried to use corrections first but after 5 minutes i knew it was not going to work, got Jean Donaldson's book "Mine!" and this is what i did. I taped it with my phone so thats why is sideways and i'm using french fries for the exercise

    http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/espencer85/?action=view¤t=Clicker.flv

    Guess how long it took for my dog to get to this point? He looks pretty happy to me

     

    espencer, I can't watch your video as I can't watch them on my computer. But I hope someone watches it and actually responds to it. Thanks for sharing.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I can see Spence's video, now!

    Can I just say that Chuck is adorable and that's pretty much what Kivi looks like when we are doing the same exercise. Kivi is a lazy dog. When he figures out that there's no point trying to grab the food he won't move at all. Erik has trouble not moving. Wink

    One thing I noticed, though, was the backseat position Chuck seems to take. When I first started teaching leave it this way Kivi was very carefully and deliberately running through everything he was doing when he got a click to try to work out exactly what was the right thing to be doing. It was so fascinating to watch I kept accidentally waiting for him to finish whatever behaviour he was trying this time before clicking. Since I stopped doing so much free shaping with him he's more inclined to sit and wait for direction like Chuck. 

    I should video Kivi doing the same exercise so you can see the similarities in their expressions. Kivi's a doll when he's concentrating. Smile 

    • Gold Top Dog

    tenna
    spencer, I can't watch your video as I can't watch them on my computer. But I hope someone watches it and actually responds to it. Thanks for sharing.

     

     

    I got my computer to look at your video. I am on a linux system and it is a bit different. It is really good that you share your video and show us what your dog is doing. I respect you for that. We ponce this excercise up  a bit and call it food refusal in the obedience ring.

    The hassle is that th first sign that you may have used too much correction or punishment is not in quite passive excercises like this where the focus is on the dog not doing something, but in exercises where the dog has to do something. Given that my first love in dog sports is tracking, it will show up when a dog freezes on a corner. It is tough work bailing out an owner and dog in this situation and now i don't.  In obedience the first signs is a sort of slowness an air of resignation. I will get in here first though in that some dogs will head this way when the owner is stressed or they are stressed. We will get slow sits and drops and lags. The funny and sad thing is that you can sometimes get a temporary cure by leash popping them :(((

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    • Gold Top Dog

    poodleOwned
    a  few studies around that suggest that humans don't have a whole lot of restraint when it comes to aplying Aversives to other humans provided that there is something in it for them.

    Shoot, good thing I don't have pet humans, then!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    I'm not trying to prove me right and prove you wrong but I'm saddened that these recent threads seem to totally ignore the vast differences not only between breeds, but among various lines, as far as how a dog's temperament and drives effect how they train and should be trained.

     

    That has not been ignored by me! 

    I think I even responded directly to you at one point, and say that there are really too many variables (ie. the trainer, the dog, the method) to actually COMPARE methods properly. Change any one o those variables and the outcome is different.

    It's more than the difference in lines even, I think each and every individual dog is different and responds differently to diferent methods, and to deny that is to do them a disservice and vastly under-estimate them.  That's whay I said that the only way to get a true comparison between "some P+" and "no P+" is with a Tardis... or TARDIS if you prefer. Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    So you don't think it's possible that those who were training with corrections and noticed a big difference could possibly because their corrections were unnecessary, or too harsh, or ill timed, or any number of things than one can do wrong when training?

     

    This is such a good point... the fact that corrections can be so hard to apply properly for a lot of people is the best argument for abandoning them or using them sparingly IMO.

    Liesje
    So which is it?  Everyone is lumped into one category or no?

     

    No, obviously.  There is a difference witnessed when P+ is eliminated.  I don't think there is a plainer way to say it than that.  Perhaps if you use hardly any P+, then the difference will be just as negligible.  Look at it this way:  all of us, at one time or another, use P+.  Sometimes unintentionally, or to salvage a bad situation due to unforseen circumstances, or poor management (no one is perfect and mistakes happen).  That puts us ALL in the camp that "trains with some corrections".  We're all in the same boat, on the same path, on the same spectrum..... It's analogue, rather than digital. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    poodleOwned

    There is a continum of trainers IMO. in practice i am not a permissive trainer at all. If my dogs aren't on the same page as me then nothing happens. They are back in the car. I can hardly ever remembering it happen. That is P-.

    We are fairly certain that P- does act differently to other Aversives.

    I think that Aussie wise, i am towards the PP end of the spectrum. I am very reluctant to use P+ but will do and have done if the circumstances require.

     

    Hooray!  Someone else who sees it as a spectrum, rather than "you are either positive or traditional, end of".  I thought I was alone, or perhaps going slightly maaaaaaddddd....

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy

    Liesje
    I'm not trying to prove me right and prove you wrong but I'm saddened that these recent threads seem to totally ignore the vast differences not only between breeds, but among various lines, as far as how a dog's temperament and drives effect how they train and should be trained.

     

    That has not been ignored by me! 

    I think I even responded directly to you at one point, and say that there are really too many variables (ie. the trainer, the dog, the method) to actually COMPARE methods properly. Change any one of those variables and the outcome is different.

     

    Correct, and I remember thinking your post was one of the few that were making total sense (to me) lately!!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy

    There is a difference witnessed when P+ is eliminated.  I don't think there is a plainer way to say it than that.  Perhaps if you use hardly any P+, then the difference will be just as negligible.

     

    This is what I'm getting at.  How often and under what circumstances is "hardly"?  What is considered "negligible"?  Who sets these parameters and what qualifies their expertise?

    I know you and I are essentially saying the same thing, so I'm not trying to argue with you!  But do you see what I'm getting at?  Anne mentioned somewhere about seeing a dog in a video and the dog looked "anxious" and by the tone of the post I assumed this was perceived as a bad thing.  But for some of use, a little anxiety while working is what the dog really needs in order for the training and testing to be of value to us.  I think it's very easy for some people to make claims like this because for most dog training and pet dog ownership there IS no reason to use P+ (other than an emergency situation for safety/control). I really think we all agree more than we realize.  If I wasn't training my dog for anything other than CGC, rally obedience, maybe some agility, and therapy work I would have no use for P+ or R-.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    But for some of use, a little anxiety while working is what the dog really needs in order for the training and testing to be of value to us.  I think it's very easy for some people to make claims like this because for most dog training and pet dog ownership there IS no reason to use P+ (other than an emergency situation for safety/control). I really think we all agree more than we realize.  If I wasn't training my dog for anything other than CGC, rally obedience, maybe some agility, and therapy work I would have no use for P+ or R-.

     

     

    I think that there is some common gorund. I tak a much a harder line on myself and my dogs than i do with others. I really do't wnat to be a one person island..But i do find there is a continum where people that use P+ a lot seem to produce  dogs like of old who seem a bit helpless and timid despite the rewards.

    But i do have to tell you that i am in the middle of preparing my oldest girl for TSD tests . The idea or concept of using P+ - or P- is really just not in the picture. I need calm consistent work, and by treating her in this way that is what i get. You can have a look at the rules here. She is already a Tch and is more than a pretty face. :)

    www.ankc.org.au/_inc/doc_download.aspx?did=165

    She is very good. Nothing much stops her.

     

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     Here's a video of early "leave it" training with Kivi to compare with espencer's video of Chuck. If anyone wants to.

    http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=melstarling#p/u/0/vOaomQvHilg


    I haven't had a chance to check it yet. Hopefully it works.