Spinoff: Is Dominance Really So Bad?

 I strongly prefer dogs who have a strong retrieve and tug drive, especially tug drive. With dogs who enjoy retrieve and tug I use a combination of treats and toys depending on what I am teaching. Often in a session I will switch back and forth to keep the dog guessing. For things which require speed and attitude though, you can't beat the use of toys with drivey dogs. Whimsy LOVES tugging and in agility class I use almost nothing but the tug toy (except to reward contacts).

 IME it is so much easier to work with drivey dogs, even for basic pet training stuff. The hardest dogs I have ever had in class were dogs who really didn't care about food and had no interested at all in toys or playing. One such dog was an extremely laid back, no drive GSD, who was pretty well behaved naturally but extremely hard to teach any behaviors to. He actually slept through most of the training classes. The worst was a Sibe/Sammy mix, who wasn't even interested in prime rib (all the other dogs in the class were drooling though!) and never, ever played with toys.

There are certain things I will always use a food reward for, or should I say food as a reward choice, simply because I know that food is a high reinforcer for my guys all the time. The problem in working with terriers, is their "choice" of reward changes with the second. And I'm totally serious when I say that. I can take a tug toy and use it as a reward, but it's honestly hit or miss if Gaci will find it reinforcing. In the right situation, she loves to tug and will tug for all the world. But in other situations, she looks at the tug toy and if she was a person you'd see her shrug her shoulders and roll her eyes at you....I'm sure you'd hear a "Pffft whatever" as she wandered off.

But, like others, I try to move off of food as soon as is possible and move on to other things, and it totally depends on what we are working on. A dog like Shimmer actually finds attention and affection supremely reinforcing. She thrives on what you think of her, and in that respect rewarding her is so easy! Games of fun chase, letting her jump into my arms, just running around like crazy, even just getting down low and letting her lick my face, are rewards for her.

Gaci, on the other hand, is not touchy-feely, and she would prefer to chase other dogs (not always matches what I want!) or chasing things in general, go sniff for vermin, run offleash, eat food, or get the opportunity to do a favorite game like contact training or jumping. Most of Gaci's rewards are pretty unconventional, as she doesn't generally care for toys or tugs or affection when training. She does always care for food, but I try to find other ways for her to get reinforced (like a release from a great agility run to the beach!!) so that we have other choices. She's a hard dog to reinforce without food, though, because a lot of the reinforcers she loves can't be given easily or all the time. And it's not for lack of working on things....in the right situation she loves to tug, she will retrieve objects but only because I taught her to (there is still no real intrinsic reinforcement for her), she isn't really a toy dog....she's really a serious, on-the-job hunter who knows the difference between "fake prey" and real prey....and she has no time for the fake stuff.

Makes training a challenge by times, but it also makes it more invigorating!! And you really have to learn how to channel and ride the waves of drive to get where you want, because if you don't you either get a mess of a performance or the proverbial middle finger from your dog.

Food is still a drive though and in some dogs it's a very strong drive, much stronger than their prey or play drive.

IMO there's a difference between food exchange (simply giving a dog a treat in exchange for a behaviour) and utilising a dog's food drive. 

I have an insanely food driven dog here, I can get just as much drive out of her with food than people can get with their prey driven dogs. I don't feel like I'm restricting myself in our training in any way by only using her food drive (although I do utilise play/pack drive too).

I would be stupid to use prey drive with her when it's not where near as strong as her food drive. She's a beagle with a VERY strong drive to scent but when I have her working in food drive she can go from having her nose glued to the ground to 110% focus on me anywhere, any time, in very high levels of distraction.

At the end of the day she's still working in drive and getting drive satisfaction just like she would if I was working her in prey drive, and whilst I would prefer to have a prey driven dog if I could choose to (at least they don't get full! haha) IMO you should use what works best with the dog you have.

AgileGSD

 I strongly prefer dogs who have a strong retrieve and tug drive, especially tug drive. With dogs who enjoy retrieve and tug I use a combination of treats and toys depending on what I am teaching. Often in a session I will switch back and forth to keep the dog guessing. For things which require speed and attitude though, you can't beat the use of toys with drivey dogs. Whimsy LOVES tugging and in agility class I use almost nothing but the tug toy (except to reward contacts).

 IME it is so much easier to work with drivey dogs, even for basic pet training stuff. The hardest dogs I have ever had in class were dogs who really didn't care about food and had no interested at all in toys or playing. One such dog was an extremely laid back, no drive GSD, who was pretty well behaved naturally but extremely hard to teach any behaviors to. He actually slept through most of the training classes. The worst was a Sibe/Sammy mix, who wasn't even interested in prime rib (all the other dogs in the class were drooling though!) and never, ever played with toys.

I agree that drivey dogs are easy to train - for us.  But, a middle of the road dog is really much easier for people who don't have timing;-)  Sometimes, the dogs that appear less interested in class can benefit from some one on one training first.  I find that they often lack confidence, and do better in a familiar environment with no distraction.  Once they know some basics, it becomes a bit easier to work them outside the "cocoon."

While Sioux was never interested in toys, she does work for food.  She was exceptionally easy to train, although I admit that the retrieve had to be back chained.  She has never failed to do it since she learned it, though.  Liesje, you can get dumbbells at J&J Dog Supply.  The most important thing is to make sure it's the correct size for the dog, as you know, but the one I have from them has lasted in good shape for 8 years.

huski

Food is still a drive though and in some dogs it's a very strong drive, much stronger than their prey or play drive.

IMO there's a difference between food exchange (simply giving a dog a treat in exchange for a behaviour) and utilising a dog's food drive. 

I have an insanely food driven dog here, I can get just as much drive out of her with food than people can get with their prey driven dogs. I don't feel like I'm restricting myself in our training in any way by only using her food drive (although I do utilise play/pack drive too).

I would be stupid to use prey drive with her when it's not where near as strong as her food drive. She's a beagle with a VERY strong drive to scent but when I have her working in food drive she can go from having her nose glued to the ground to 110% focus on me anywhere, any time, in very high levels of distraction.

At the end of the day she's still working in drive and getting drive satisfaction just like she would if I was working her in prey drive, and whilst I would prefer to have a prey driven dog if I could choose to (at least they don't get full! haha) IMO you should use what works best with the dog you have.

That's a good way of looking at it - and I have a hound, too, that I use food with.  He will tug, but not in the vicinity of a sausage lol.  However, because I understand, and can still apply, the same principles of operant conditioning using ANY reinforcement, working with any drive, the dog learns what I would like him to learn. 

huski

IMO there's a difference between food exchange (simply giving a dog a treat in exchange for a behaviour) and utilising a dog's food drive.

I think this is a very important point.  I think people too often call something "drive" simply because a dog accepts it as a reward.  To me, the dog has "drive" when it would run through plate glass for that reward.  If the dog only accept it in *some* situations/environments, it can still be a reward, but I wouldn't call that "drive".  At my club we call Coke the "driveless dog".  Now, he is quite trainable, he will work for food and praise and sometimes play, but he doesn't actually have food or play or toy drive such that he would work through pressure and conflict for that reward.  Training a dog a new behavior is one thing; actually asking that dog to work in drive is something different.  That is why I said before that I usually train new behaviors with food, and then "put it in drive" later on with the ball.  My dog will work so hard for his ball, he's already injured himself twice going after it.  I have to be careful, even just playing fetch.

It is possible to have a dog that has very little to no drive and is a perfectly fine dog that is quite lively and trainable.  I have two such dogs, and one has a dozen titles on her name.

I call something "drive" when you can put really pressure on the dog, present the dog with a conflict, and his desire to get that reward pushes him through and makes him a better dog for it, rather than avoidance or shutting down.  Same thing with prey drive, fight drive, defense drive, etc.  Another way I define it is that the dog is the one pushing you, the dog is the one begging you to get up and work him.  You're trying to keep up with your dog, not expending all your energy trying to motivate your dog.

I don't see anything wrong with food drive.  I'm like AgileGSD, I prefer using toys for fetch and tug, but only because that is more practical for what I am training (retrieves, protection, etc).  Food drive is great for tracking though, but luckily my dog tracks for the ball at the end.

spiritdogs

Liesje, you can get dumbbells at J&J Dog Supply.  The most important thing is to make sure it's the correct size for the dog, as you know, but the one I have from them has lasted in good shape for 8 years.

Thanks, I'll have to look. I'll need a SchH1 dumbell, whatever size that is (haven't checked yet).

spiritdogs

That's a good way of looking at it - and I have a hound, too, that I use food with.  He will tug, but not in the vicinity of a sausage lol.  However, because I understand, and can still apply, the same principles of operant conditioning using ANY reinforcement, working with any drive, the dog learns what I would like him to learn. 

I can reward her with a tug, she has a reasonable prey drive and will tug quite happily. But her prey drive is still no where near as strong as her food drive. If given the choice between food and a tug, she'd walk over the tug like it wasn't even there.

I train for competition obedience so I like to have a dog who I can switch on when I give the command word and have her working reliably in drive in any situation under any level of distraction. I only use her food drive for obedience training. Sure I can use a range of things to reinforce behaviour I would like to see and that might be fine for day to day stuff, but when I really want her to switch on and have 110% focus and tonnes of drive I will always utilise her strongest drive - food. 

When I was building her food drive I would get her to chase the food much like you get a prey driven dog to chase a tug, you are still using the same principles of drive training and the dog is still getting that rush of adrenaline and release of endorphins in food drive that they would get if you were training a very prey driven dog.

Liesje

huski

IMO there's a difference between food exchange (simply giving a dog a treat in exchange for a behaviour) and utilising a dog's food drive.

 

I think this is a very important point.  I think people too often call something "drive" simply because a dog accepts it as a reward.  To me, the dog has "drive" when it would run through plate glass for that reward.  If the dog only accept it in *some* situations/environments, it can still be a reward, but I wouldn't call that "drive".  At my club we call Coke the "driveless dog".  Now, he is quite trainable, he will work for food and praise and sometimes play, but he doesn't actually have food or play or toy drive such that he would work through pressure and conflict for that reward.  Training a dog a new behavior is one thing; actually asking that dog to work in drive is something different.  That is why I said before that I usually train new behaviors with food, and then "put it in drive" later on with the ball.  My dog will work so hard for his ball, he's already injured himself twice going after it.  I have to be careful, even just playing fetch.

Yep, totally agree with this.

You can see the difference a dog who working for food exchange, vs a dog who is working IN food drive. Everything is faster, sharper, more focused when a dog is in drive. You can see the difference in their body language so clearly when you know what to look for. It's the reason why I can take my beagle out and get her working with 110% focus on me as opposed to having 110% focus on the scents on the ground. 

Before using her food drive properly I could shove food under her nose when she was scenting and she wouldn't even notice it was there. Now she will fall over herself to get the food I have in my hand... I'm using the same food but the way I am using it has changed. 

It is possible to have a dog that has very little to no drive and is a perfectly fine dog that is quite lively and trainable.  I have two such dogs, and one has a dozen titles on her name.

Yep but like AgileGSDs said earlier - I would prefer a dog with lots of drive over one with very little to no drive.

I call something "drive" when you can put really pressure on the dog, present the dog with a conflict, and his desire to get that reward pushes him through and makes him a better dog for it, rather than avoidance or shutting down.  Same thing with prey drive, fight drive, defense drive, etc.  Another way I define it is that the dog is the one pushing you, the dog is the one begging you to get up and work him.  You're trying to keep up with your dog, not expending all your energy trying to motivate your dog.

I don't see anything wrong with food drive.  I'm like AgileGSD, I prefer using toys for fetch and tug, but only because that is more practical for what I am training (retrieves, protection, etc).  Food drive is great for tracking though, but luckily my dog tracks for the ball at the end.

Definitely! It's quite funny seeing my beag begging to work. She's so keen, hehe. The main thing with using her food drive is that it becomes about working in drive as much as it does about getting the food reward, sometimes she'll cough up the food she's just eaten (because she doesn't chew before swallowing - typical!) and will leave it on the ground. Working in drive is a reward in itself.

See, that's where the fun comes in....Gaci is dripping in prey drive. The problem is, she knows the difference between real prey and fake prey....so she doesn't utilize any sort of prey drive for things like tug. You can see it come out in some of her chase games, but it's still nothing compared to real prey. It's really hard when you have a dog that only works "in drive" for actual running, squeaking prey......and it would be a bit of an ethical dilemma if I brought a caged rat to, say, an agility training session.

Most of what Gaci is really, truly driven for, I can't use as a reward in real time. It is either ethically wrong, too risky, or too time consuming (I can't let her run to the beach every time I want to reward her in agility.....we'd never get anything done). I liken Gaci to a risk-seeker.....her innate interests are generally things that she shouldn't be doing. It really limits your choices of what you can and can't do. Now, in saying that, we've done quite a lot together, and we've come a long way and taught a lot of things that she truly enjoys doing. But I'll be 100% completely honest when I say most of it is in utilizing her desire for food, and using food. And as a realist, she's turning 6 next March and she'll likely always have to be taught that way. But, that's okay with me, and I've accepted that she's just not that into toys or tugs. She's a foody (and sometimes moody) dog, but that's why I love her and that's why I love working with her, because she is a foody, moody, driven-to-what-she-wants Schnauzer.

huski

Liesje

huski

IMO there's a difference between food exchange (simply giving a dog a treat in exchange for a behaviour) and utilising a dog's food drive.

 

I think this is a very important point.  I think people too often call something "drive" simply because a dog accepts it as a reward.  To me, the dog has "drive" when it would run through plate glass for that reward.  If the dog only accept it in *some* situations/environments, it can still be a reward, but I wouldn't call that "drive".  At my club we call Coke the "driveless dog".  Now, he is quite trainable, he will work for food and praise and sometimes play, but he doesn't actually have food or play or toy drive such that he would work through pressure and conflict for that reward.  Training a dog a new behavior is one thing; actually asking that dog to work in drive is something different.  That is why I said before that I usually train new behaviors with food, and then "put it in drive" later on with the ball.  My dog will work so hard for his ball, he's already injured himself twice going after it.  I have to be careful, even just playing fetch.

Yep, totally agree with this.

You can see the difference a dog who working for food exchange, vs a dog who is working IN food drive. Everything is faster, sharper, more focused when a dog is in drive. You can see the difference in their body language so clearly when you know what to look for.

I like the phrase "working IN drive" because it distinguishes just training.  Working in drive is not exactly a balanced state of mind for the dog.  Like how you were saying you only bring out the food when you want/need that 110%, likewise I would not expect my dog to do Schutzhund heeling for an entire walk around the neighborhood.  99% of the time, my dog is just a crazy, hyper, pushy puppy.  1% of the time, he is working IN drive.  This is not always appropriate even when training.  When we did our CGC class, and now when we do our Rally class in January, I will not be working him in drive.  It's just not appropriate or necessary in those contexts.  I can get focus and compliance with food, without drive.

Kim_MacMillan

See, that's where the fun comes in....Gaci is dripping in prey drive. The problem is, she knows the difference between real prey and fake prey....so she doesn't utilize any sort of prey drive for things like tug. You can see it come out in some of her chase games, but it's still nothing compared to real prey. It's really hard when you have a dog that only works "in drive" for actual running, squeaking prey......and it would be a bit of an ethical dilemma if I brought a caged rat to, say, an agility training session.

It might be something that needs to be developed.  Even for the crazy, drivey GSDs they don't always come out of the box this way.  Huski was talking about building the food drive so I assume he/she has done the same.  Nikon ignored balls for the first 5 months of his life.  The ball drive is something that *I* created so that I had an absolute motivator/reward ALL of the time (it's also my "emergency recall).  I needed a very experienced trainer to help me develop this drive and bring it out in the dog.  If you never have to work really hard to shape and channel the dog's drives, then you are an extremely lucky person.  To date I have spent considerably more time just developing ball drive than actually training and working my dog.  We did a ton of back-tying and agitation work to channel all of Nikon's prey drive and frustration into the ball.  As a youngster he was somewhat interested in a lot of things; we took all of that "somewhat" from those many things and crammed it all onto the ball, and now have a dog who's love for the ball has landed him at the vet's!

Here's a video that I got in 2007, where Gaci actually at one time did work "in drive" for the tug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4FrPwUb810

She is utterly, totally, glued to my side, and she was actually practically shaking in anticipation. She is so focused that she finds it difficult to do her impulse-control behaviours, and she fires out of a down like a rocket. When she's waiting in a down, her whole being is screaming "GOOOOOOO". Every movement is intense, and she doesn't even look away from me when she "outs".

But....I don't get this level of focus and drive all the time. It's unpredictable, and 100% depending on her own desires. Which, I suppose, is understandable, but sometimes I wish she had that level of interest in toys all the time!!!

Liesje

Kim_MacMillan

See, that's where the fun comes in....Gaci is dripping in prey drive. The problem is, she knows the difference between real prey and fake prey....so she doesn't utilize any sort of prey drive for things like tug. You can see it come out in some of her chase games, but it's still nothing compared to real prey. It's really hard when you have a dog that only works "in drive" for actual running, squeaking prey......and it would be a bit of an ethical dilemma if I brought a caged rat to, say, an agility training session.

 

It might be something that needs to be developed.  Even for the crazy, drivey GSDs they don't always come out of the box this way.  Huski was talking about building the food drive so I assume he/she has done the same.  Nikon ignored balls for the first 5 months of his life.  The ball drive is something that *I* created so that I had an absolute motivator/reward ALL of the time (it's also my "emergency recall).  I needed a very experienced trainer to help me develop this drive and bring it out in the dog.  If you never have to work really hard to shape and channel the dog's drives, then you are an extremely lucky person.  To date I have spent considerably more time just developing ball drive than actually training and working my dog.  We did a ton of back-tying and agitation work to channel all of Nikon's prey drive and frustration into the ball.  As a youngster he was somewhat interested in a lot of things; we took all of that "somewhat" from those many things and crammed it all onto the ball, and now have a dog who's love for the ball has landed him at the vet's!

I agree (again, lol :p). 

I spent months developing my dog's drive and I too did so under the guidance of a very experienced trainer. Despite always wanting to take food, I couldn't always get drive or the level of drive I was happy with - it takes time to develop and build it. Some of my training sessions would be 30-60 seconds long MAX. 

The hard thing with some dogs especially if you start with an adult is often they have learnt to get drive satisfaction from other things like moving prey items. They've learned that chasing a live prey item is the most rewarding thing ever and it takes time to turn it around and teach them that the prey item in your hand is far more exciting and rewarding. I had a similar problem with my beagle as we didn't start TID until she was two years old and by that point she'd had two years learning that scenting was the most rewarding thing ever and the best way to get drive satisfaction was to put her nose to the ground. 

The hardest thing is getting that focus and drive, it's what I've spent the most part of 2009 doing ;) Now I have a dog who I can switch on really easily and get that 110% focus in high levels of distraction - we have a bit of fine tuning to do before we hit the trial ring but we've done the hardest part.

Liesje, re working your dog in drive - I agree there are situations where you wouldn't do it, which is why lots of people who TID use two different sets of commands (not sure if you do the same) - one for normal every day obedience and one for TID.

Kim_MacMillan

Here's a video that I got in 2007, where Gaci actually at one time did work "in drive" for the tug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4FrPwUb810

She is utterly, totally, glued to my side, and she was actually practically shaking in anticipation. She is so focused that she finds it difficult to do her impulse-control behaviours, and she fires out of a down like a rocket. When she's waiting in a down, her whole being is screaming "GOOOOOOO". Every movement is intense, and she doesn't even look away from me when she "outs".

She's so cute! 

I'm not sure how you usually use tugs, but personally with prey driven dogs I make it more about the chase than the capture - does she enjoy chasing the tug?