Dog Community

dog "went after" infant

Posted : 8/7/2006 9:55:22 AM

I'm posting here to get some opinions on our difficult situation... background: Tyler is a mixed breed...maybe some lab, shephard and rotti and something lean and fast -- he's about 50lbs 8 yrs. old and I got him from Animal Control when he was 8 months. --my best buddy for years...

There have been 3 incidents in the last year with him:
1) went after a child who was digging in his food bowl and knocked her over (I couldn't get him out of the room quickly enough)
2) went after a buddies daughter (again in the kitchen near bowl)
3) recently went after my 9 month old son as he crawled past in the kitchen

In all cases there was really no audible warning and he moved toward them and the last 2 times he put his mouth over their faces... but didn't snap or bite down... they both got minor skin irritations on their face from 1 tooth, but no bleeding. I also have 2 cats and he will sometimes knock them over and act this way with them, but they fight back with a swing and he leaves them alone -- often they'll play together. Until these incidents, there were times when he would lick these kids to death and have to be pulled off them because thier faces would be covered in Tyler slobber.. since the incidents, I don't let him get that close to any of them.

My wife and I are in the process of trying to find him a new home with friends/family that do not have kids. Are we over-reacting?? I want to believe it's only a kitchen/food thing with him -- his food bowl has always been a point of aggression, but I don't think I can be confident that it won't occur somewhere else in the house.

I love both my boys and I don't know what to do. Does anyone have suggestions or ideas?

thanks.

stardog85

Posted : 8/7/2006 9:58:56 AM

If it's only ever happened around the food bowl/in the kitchen I would think that it is purely a resource guarding behavior. How is he with the kids in other parts of the house? The bite inhibition he shows is *great*, but you are right to look into treating the problem instead of ignoring it.

If it is indeed resource guarding, why not just feed him 2 times a day, pick up the bowl between feedings, and feed him in a crate or room away from the kids?

glenmar

Posted : 8/7/2006 10:29:56 AM

If the food bowl has always been a problem, why on earth is it still hanging around? Put the bowl down when NO children are around, give him 20 minutes to eat and then take the bowl up until his next scheduled feeding time. He'll quickly realize that he eats when the bowl is down or does without until the next meal time. And please keep any and all children away from him for the 20 minutes 2x a day that he has his bowl.

I wouldn't rehome this dog. He's shown you for a long time that his bowl is an issue and you've let it continue, so this truely is NOT his fault. Control the situation and you should be fine.

barker7676

Posted : 8/7/2006 10:34:02 AM

1st off, thanks for the response...
I've been so afraid to allow him near any children after these incidents, that I can't really tell how he would deal with them in other areas of my home. He seems fine next my son. He sits next to him often almost guard-like or lies on the ground not far off. Although, I don't allow him that close lately (last few days.)

You mention his "bite inhibition"... Is that the idea of him not biting down? (only using his mouth to "warn")

I used to try and only feed him 2x a day, but he doesn't really eat.... almost never... he was a "street dog" and I have never been able to keep him happy with a single dog food for more than a few days. I guess he might learn to eat on schedule if I unintentionally starve him for a week... but I never had the need to do that before.

barker7676

Posted : 8/7/2006 10:41:49 AM

thanks Glenda... I'll try that approach...

I didn't mean to imply that he was aggressive about his food normally -- he allows the cats to drink and eat from his bowls.... he never had an interest in dog food but the only time you'd ever get a rise out of him is if you pretended to eat his food... my little brother used to tease him with that to encourage him to eat (since he's a very skinny dog) and it was the only time he EVER showed any aggression -- and that was with my brothers mouth in his food bowl making gobbling noises... seems crazy, I know...

I guess I'm still nervous about him in other areas of the home... he's faster than my wife or I; so, how can I let him interact with my son ever? I mean, how can I know it'll be safe? That's the tough call.

Xerxes

Posted : 8/7/2006 10:42:13 AM

If you know that there is a problem with his resource guarding, then you need to move the resources away from where the children can get to them. First thing is no more free feeding. Feed him on a schedule, put the food down twice a day for 20 minutes tops. Then pick up Keep the kids out of the room where he's fed-use baby gates or shut the doors.

Yes he's demonstrated bite inhibition, but this may not always be the case. Babies and children should never be left unsupervised with any dog, I'm not saying this happened, just saying that it should never happen. Please work with this dog, resource guarding is an issue that can be dealt with. There's a book called "Mine, a guide to resource guarding" that should be very helpful to you.

glenmar

Posted : 8/7/2006 11:09:06 AM

With the information I have, I wouldn't be uncomfortable with this dog being with a child, UNDER SUPERVISION. Let him drag a leash if it makes you feel a bit more secure, or teether him IN the room with your son but keep your son back and just watch carefully.

And yeah, eventually he WILL get used to being fed on a schedule so don't worry about him starving to death while he adjusts. But, absolutely make where ever he is being fed completely OFF limits to anyone under the age of 20 or so.

And slap your brother upside the head for starting all this nonsense!

Christi

Posted : 8/7/2006 11:31:06 AM

All the info you've received so far is great. I'd like to add a suggestion we do and have heard from others on the board. When you're preparing your dog's food, put the bowl on the counter, get yourself a few crackers or whatever and eat them while you're preparing his food. Make sure he can see you doing this. It is supposed to reassert your status in the house as leader. I have two puppies who eat next to each other and I do this and have NEVER had any food aggression out of either one of them. Another thing we've done, since the day they came home, is for us and our boys to add good stuff like a piece of meat or a treat to their bowl while they're eating to show that hand in bowl = good stuff. This may not be possible for you at this point, and I agree with Glenda that no kids should be anywhere near your dog when he's eating but I did want to mention it for future reference. I really hope you're able to work through these issues so he doesn't have to learn to adapt to a new home at his age. A great book to read is Jan Fennell's The Dog Listener. I think it could be very helpful to you in re-establishing leadership in your home. Christi

mudpuppy

Posted : 8/7/2006 11:36:17 AM

There's nothing wrong with mixing some premium canned food in with dry kibble every meal. Might encourage him to eat up quickly.

barker7676

Posted : 8/7/2006 1:08:29 PM

to be honest, until today, I had no idea what resource guarding or bite inhibition was... I have no problems going near his bowl to mix in a treat or whatever (nor does anyone who would be inclined to normally do this)... he'll even wait until I tell him he's allowed to resume eating after I interrupt him to throw in something good... that's where it's a little confusing. He only demonstrates the aggression with kids -- maybe once with another dog he didn't know well.

And IF we found him a new home it would only be one that he already knows well -- with family or friends that already dog-sit for us... I could never just give him to anyone.

Thank you for this information. I'm not sure I'll be able to convince my wife to try this, and I'm not sure it's worth the risk myself, but at least until we find him a home, I can make these adjustments and note any changes... then, maybe Tyler won't need to go

Incidentally.... what kind of backgrounds do you folks have? Just educated dog-lovers or are any of you vets or trainers, etc? Of course, I appreciate everyones input, I just need to understand my sources.

And as for the canned food... again.. worked well for a few days, then he gets tired of it and won't eat it... picky one..

thanks again..

glenmar

Posted : 8/7/2006 1:32:36 PM

Dogs see little kids more as peers than as alpha or leaders, the word I prefer. So it stands to reason that he'll protect his food MORE against a little one. That, and your brother, whose age I don't know, started all this stuff. This is why kids under 10 are the most bitten part of the population....that and they make wierd noises and jerky unexpected motions....normal kid stuff, but kind of upsetting to dogs at times.

I'm just an old broad with a ton of dog experience under my belt. All six of my german shepherds (3 are fosters who we couldn't find "quite" good enough homes for) have gone through training classes tho, and five have earned their canine good citizen awards. I've been a breeder, way back, and now I foster, and normally tend to get LITTERS or mommas to be ready to whelp any second. I've not accepted any new fosters this summer since we've had a series of family medical issues, but once the dust settles, the doors will be open again. But, nope, no formal training other than the school of hard knocks!

Xerxes

Posted : 8/7/2006 4:11:30 PM

Incidentally.... what kind of backgrounds do you folks have? Just educated dog-lovers or are any of you vets or trainers, etc?

I'm just a guy with a dog trying to keep my sanity and possibly help some others along the way. My dog is very intelligent but not as "trainable" as others so I've had to learn new methods of positive reinforcement training. I can say that I've learned alot from this forum.

stardog85

Posted : 8/11/2006 3:36:20 PM

I'm currently a senior Animal Science major, specializing in behavior and wellbeing. I also train dogs for a few clients on the side when I have time.

I've lived with my formerly undersocialized rescue dog for 6 years and have taken her from a dog that freaked out when more than 4 people were present, to one that now serves as a therapy dog, competes in agility, and walks city streets w/ no problems. [

] All total I have been working with dogs for 11 years.

Any updates?

luvmyswissy

Posted : 8/11/2006 10:23:23 PM

My dog was/is a bowl guarder. We belive that we have this under control and we can now pick up the bowl, touch him while he eats and approach his bowl if we wanted. HOWEVER, IMHO although an alcholic may not be drinking, once an alcholic, always an alcholic - Once a bowl guarder, always a bowl guarder - just need that one bad day! I will never trust my dog around food and children (or non-family members for that fact) - therefore he is ALWAYS fed in his crate. If food is being prepared, cooked or eaten he is in his crate. Any time food is around, he is crated. High valued items are never given to my dog without strick supervision by my husband or I. I have a Five year old and would NEVER take the chance or put him in harms way. I suggest you do the same. NEVER leave your dog and any child unattended, ever!! Why take that risk? It won't hurt your dogs feeling if you feed him in peace and don't leave high value items (toys or food) around for him access. Only give to him while he is supervised. Be cautious with this situation but I don't think you have to give your dog away just supervise dog and child interaction always. Good luck.

spiritdogs

Posted : 8/13/2006 3:58:44 PM

I'm a trainer. First, I would take the advice about getting a copy of "Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs". Also, no more free feeding - you are the leaders now, not his restaurateurs. He will not starve himself.
The problem with food guarders often comes when kids have food, drop it, and both go for the food at the same time. So, until you get the guarding thing under control, no more dog in the room while kids have food, and no more kids in the room while dog has food.
Your kids should *not* be on the floor with the dog, nor should he be on the furniture with the kids - that only convinces him that they are peers, not leaders. Dogs that guard against other dogs aren't that unusual, but if your dog guards against kids, you have a problem - so please don't put him in that situation again.
If the dog hasn't been to classes yet, it isn't too late to take him - find a positive trainer who is also savvy about resource guarding issues. Try here: [linkhttp://www.ccpdt.com]www.ccpdt.com[/link] or [linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com]www.clickertraining.com[/link]. Both sites have a trainer search.
I would rather see you rehome your dog than have him end up with a bite history, but you must remember that even if you send him to a home with no kids, there are kids in the universe. He may come into contact with them at some point. So, even if he goes to a childless friend, it should be someone willing to put in the effort to retrain this aspect of his personality.
I'm just sorry you let this go on so long. I can't even imagine dumping my dog after eight years. [&o]