Dog Community

Is this just submissive behavior or something else?

Posted : 1/10/2007 12:20:18 PM

Sammy (one of my Shih-Tzus, was the runt of his litter, is now 15 mos old) has this cowering body posture as if he's afraid he will be struck when you reach to pet him or pick him up. He kind of crouches down and lowers his head almost to the floor. (although once you pick him up, he licks all over you and wags his tail - He loves attention from people and unlike his brother, he would let you carry him around all day if you would!) He has always done this from a pup of 11 weeks when we brought him home. We have a quiet home - no children, and we do not yell or touch our animals to correct them. I've always figured it's just that he has a very submissive nature, maybe because he was the runt; but I thought he would be more confident by now.

If a dog is submissive, is this personality just part of them forever or can you train it out?

I have clicker trained both of them for basic obedience and some cute tricks (he and his littermate, Willie) since they were very young. They automatically do a down before we set their food down for them (we call it "say grace";). They have a steady routine and are well socialized with all types of people and places, and I thought so with other dogs- but Willie's behavior makes me wonder about that these days (that's for a seperate post!).

I do think he may have had some submissive urniation problems in the past, but we seem to be past that. He had lots of "accidents" and would sometimes just pee as he walked or ran around the house. I took him to the vet with a urine sample and verified that there was no UTI causing this behavior so I'm guessing it was the submissive urination thing or maybe it took him much longer than Willie to really grasp Potty Outside? They are both rock solid on finding me in the house and asking to go outside now, but just 3 months ago, my parents came over and when my mom picked Sam up, he peed all down the front of her!! He has never done that even as a puppy; thank goodness it was my mom and not someone else visiting! (there is nothing as precious to my mother as Willie and Sam, and they get very excited to see her as well) My husband said they had just come in from being outside when it happened.

So if a dog urinates from excitement, is it still considered submissive urination or is it a problem holding it?

Sammy seems to be challenging his rank lately too. Willie appears to be the alpha of them, but it's hard to tell sometimes. Willie becomes more upset if Sammy is not around; Sam doesn't seem to mind if Willie is not in the room, as long as I am. Sammy has been getting very pushy and snappy at Willie lately too. Iif Willie tries to get too close to me - Sam will jump between us and give a mean snarling snap at Willie. I correct this behavior with a stern NO to let them know I won't tolerate that. Should I not interfere when they do this?

Any thoughts on Sammy's body language and behavior? Is there something I should be working on with him?

espencer

Posted : 1/10/2007 12:40:11 PM

It seems that the dog might have low self esteem and does not know that if you are going to hurt him or pet him untill you have the hand on his head

One think you have to make sure of is not to feel sorry of him because that behavior or because he was the runt of his littler, that would only nurture the behavior

Angelique

Posted : 1/10/2007 12:53:39 PM

Some dogs are simply born with more submissive personalities. Displaying submissive behaviors is also a way of communicating with both their owner and other dogs.

A dog can display submissive behaviors combined with an insecure and/or confused (fearful and/or apprehensive) emotional state with humans who flop-flop between behaving in a dominant or a submissive manner as they interact with their dog.

Submissive displays can also indicate insecurity due to confusion in a dog who does not know their place with their human.

How a dog interacts with other dogs can be different than how they interact with their humans. A naturally submissive dog can still act bratty and bully-ish with another dog in the household because the humans either back it up (inadvertantly) or the other dog is backing down because it knows not to fight because they recognise the humans are the leaders and it is waiting for them to interveen.

If your dog sees you as a stable and consistant leader, they will not bully the other dog because as leader, you have indicated this is not appropriate behavior. If a dog does not see you as their leader, but only someone who is unpredictable, they will still use submissive signals to keep themselves safe, but may not recognise and respond to your directions as a leader to leave the other dog alone.

A signal depends on everything going on in a specific interaction and also whether a dog sees you as a predictable, consistant leader, or as an unpredictable being who acts like a leader one minute, and a follower the next.

You might read through the thread in the CM forum about "The Language of Dominance and Submission".

Humans send a lot of confusing signals to dogs, the constant flip-flop in our body language, attitude, and demeanor can confuse a dog and never lets a dog know if they should be following or leading.

IMOAE

ETA: What you should be working on is your own behavior, body language, and interactions with your dog, so that the dog is "reading" you as a consistant leader. And, so should everyone else who lives with this dog.

jones

Posted : 1/10/2007 1:12:26 PM

The reason that small dogs are more likely to be submissive urinators is that they are small... humans loom over them and then swoop down and pick them up. That can seem very intimidating to a little dog and a dog with a shy personality may find it entirely too much to handle. As much as they love human contact, most dogs do not like being picked up in the air and held five feet from the floor. When your dog licks your face he is actually making appeasement gestures toward you which is consistent with his submissive cringing... this behavior is not human-like "kissing."

The right way to approach a shy dog is by turning sideways and crouching down to his level. Let him come to you, and rather than reaching over his head to pet him, scratch him gently under the head around his chest and shoulders. I think it's best not to pick him up unless you really need to for some reason... but not just to give some love.

zsrg;lb ksr'pfjsoprej dfsg;va bjpskopa]

Posted : 1/10/2007 2:22:57 PM

ORIGINAL: jones
The right way to approach a shy dog is by turning sideways and crouching down to his level. Let him come to you, and rather than reaching over his head to pet him, scratch him gently under the head around his chest and shoulders. I think it's best not to pick him up unless you really need to for some reason... but not just to give some love.

Yup yup! In the doggy world is is considered bad manners to reach behind the ears. Now while 90% of dogs do tolerate it and learn that it means they are recieving affection the instinct is to shy away from that type of touch. It is the comprable to the way a predator goes after its prey. Like Jones said try rubbing his chest or under his chin.
Also as mentioned before it could just be part of his personality but we can inadvertently nourish this behavior by coddling and using mickey mouse voices to console them when they display this behavior. Use that voice as a reward, talk normaly to him when he is acting fearful!

Sherrie Porter

Posted : 1/10/2007 2:24:51 PM

I completely agree with jones. That is some good advice!!

tzumommy

Posted : 1/10/2007 3:10:48 PM

Thanks to all of you for all the great insight and suggestions.
"In the doggy world is is considered bad manners to reach behind the ears." - I had no idea! That's good info to have

I just starting reading/learning about dog behavior, +R training, and "doggie manners" when I got my Shih Tzu pups in December of 2005, so I'm still kind of a newbie to some of the doggie/human differences I guess! There's a whole lot of things I would do differently if I only knew then what I know now, including purchasing them from the woman we got them from - UGH - I can't believe we put money in her pocket! I am now involved with a rescue group and cannot believe how ignorant I was only a year ago. That's why I work with rescue now, I want to help educate people like I was when we were looking for our dogs - maybe I'm trying to redeem myself!

I have to admit I do use the Mickey Mouse voice with my guys entirely too much. Maybe because it's just so darn cute to see them get all happy and waggly when I talk to them that way! So, with that in mind, I guess I probably have been contributing to Sam's submissive issues.

I have also become increasingly aware (especially since I've had my 80lb foster dog) that people in general (including dear hubby!) seem to "baby talk" and pick up/coddle small dogs, when you wouldn't be as inclined to do that with a large dog. It's something I need to work on, but will be nearly impossible to keep others from doing it.

It will be interesting to see how they respond if I change my tone when I'm speaking to them from Mickey Mouse to a normal speaking tone. My guys are "soft" dogs; it does not take much to get their attention or to hurt their feelings. Stern tones seem to "hurt their feelings" if that makes any sense. I reserve that voice for verbal cues like No or Off or Leave It. I'm not sure if I explained that right; I don't mean to sound as if I berate them when I tell them No or Off - I just use a stronger tone than usual. At any rate, they will stop whatever they're doing in their tracks if they hear that tone from me.

So from your responses, it looks like you are all in agreement that both the urinating issues he had in the past and the cowering body posture are from having a submissive personality? He even walks differently than Willie. Willie prances, held high, shoulders back. Sammy slouches, head always low. He does kinda walk like he may have low self-esteem, as espencer suggested.

I was planning to sign Willie up for an Obedience Class when I finish Mason's at the end of January, and was hoping then to move on to Agility in the Spring to help with his insecurity issues, as well as the socialization and some of his "clingy" issues when he sees me interacting with other animals.

Maybe Sam needs it more? It's tough with 2 the same age - that's the other thing I would have done differently....

Thanks again, and I still welcome any additional comments or suggestions if you come up with more.

mudpuppy

Posted : 1/10/2007 3:18:37 PM

have you thought about using a cue word and body postures to help him overcome his fears-- right now, all he sees is you swooping in from above, how scary for the little critter. Maybe if instead of coming in from above, every time you want to pick him up you crouch down facing him and invite him to be picked up or petted with a special word?
Most dogs really dislike having hands descend on their heads from above, really dislike having

eople lean over them, and many also dislike being picked up. As the supposedly smarter species we CAN learn how to interact with our dogs in more dog-friendly ways.

tzumommy

Posted : 1/10/2007 3:19:50 PM

When your dog licks your face he is actually making appeasement gestures toward you which is consistent with his submissive cringing... this behavior is not human-like "kissing."

I do remember reading that dogs excessive licking is sometimes their way of showing that they are being subordinate to you. Sammy drives us crazy with his licking. If he's laying next to you or if you pick him up, or any time he is near you, he will lick, lick, lick your arm, neck, hand - whatever he can reach!

So, I have this question: when my foster dog walks over to me when I'm on the computer, not even looking at him, and gives me a big lick on the face or when I'm driving and he reaches around the drivers seat and licks my ear; what is he saying? He's a big clown; and the complete opposite of my "soft" boys. He's a hard dog and is hard headed and quite the "independent thinker"! (as houndlove would call him)

zsrg;lb ksr'pfjsoprej dfsg;va bjpskopa]

Posted : 1/10/2007 3:21:45 PM

ORIGINAL: tzumomm

It will be interesting to see how they respond if I change my tone when I'm speaking to them from Mickey Mouse to a normal speaking tone. My guys are "soft" dogs; it does not take much to get their attention or to hurt their feelings. Stern tones seem to "hurt their feelings" if that makes any sense.

It makes perfect sense, you are anthromophizing your dogs, we all do it but it can greatly hinder us from actually understanding what is going on versus what we assume is going on or what they are feeling. You are placing emotions upon them that you think they have in response to whatever it is you do. Now dont get me wrong, yes dogs have feelings, yes they have emotions but they are not strategic planners nor do they reflect, ponder or wonder. They reacct do exactly what is happening in their environment at that specific point in time. SO....give your babies some credit, treat them like the canine's they are. In packs the submissive ones arnt babied, they are treated just the same![

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tzumommy

Posted : 1/10/2007 3:26:16 PM

have you thought about using a cue word and body postures to help him overcome his fears-- right now, all he sees is you swooping in from above, how scary for the little critter. Maybe if instead of coming in from above, every time you want to pick him up you crouch down facing him and invite him to be picked up or petted with a special word?

I hadn't even considered that because I just learned today (you guys are great) that we've all probably been intimidating the crap out of the little critter since he was a baby and since he's already so submissive, he just deals with it! LOL - poor thing.

But I think it's a great idea, and I think I'll try it and if it makes a difference, I can begin to educate the rest of my visitors and family how to approach Sam to prevent the cowering.

DH is out of town this week, so I will have some "alone time" with my boys. This will be a great time to work on some new cues.

jones

Posted : 1/10/2007 7:08:25 PM

I do remember reading that dogs excessive licking is sometimes their way of showing that they are being subordinate to you. Sammy drives us crazy with his licking. If he's laying next to you or if you pick him up, or any time he is near you, he will lick, lick, lick your arm, neck, hand - whatever he can reach!

So, I have this question: when my foster dog walks over to me when I'm on the computer, not even looking at him, and gives me a big lick on the face or when I'm driving and he reaches around the drivers seat and licks my ear; what is he saying? He's a big clown; and the complete opposite of my "soft" boys. He's a hard dog and is hard headed and quite the "independent thinker"! (as houndlove would call him)

There are a couple of different reasons why dogs lick... the "appeasement gesture" is the one I picked as the most likely reason for it when you pick Sammy up. Dogs also sometimes lick obsessively as a coping mechanism for stress or anxiety - like how humans bite their fingernails sort of. Dogs sometimes lick people because they've picked up on how much people like (or hate!) "kisses" so they'll do it to get a reaction. Your foster dog, it sounds like, has figured out a good way to get your attention! [

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Don't worry about the learning curve... we all start out not knowing much about dogs and have to learn sometime. I was a total newbie two years ago myself. I can relate very much to what you're saying about trying to stop/change other humans' behavior with your dog... my dog is a submissive urinator (still, at almost 2yo) and I have to admit I have not had the greatest success in getting people to consistently approach him the right way... it's hard because you have to catch people before they rush up to your dog and that's not always as easy as it sounds. But you do what you can....

samshine

Posted : 1/10/2007 8:15:23 PM

It's really very simple. In dog language, when a dog puts his head, neck or paw over the shoulder of another dog that is a dominance display. When a dominant dog does this to a submissive dog, the proper response from the submissive dog is to make a display of submission. Which is exactly what cowering and putting the head down is. The submissive dog knows that this will likely appease the dominant dog.

When you lean over your dog, or reach down from above towards their head or back, it looks an awful lot like a dominance display. Most dogs get used to this behavior from us and pay no attention. A very submissive dog may never get rid of that reflex behavior. You can try crouching instead of leaning over the dog. Or if you do lean over turn sideways so you aren't above. Avoid having your hand come down from above. Instead of petting the top of the head or back, pet the side of the head and neck, chest, base of the ears.