Seemingly Random Aggression

    • Bronze

    Seemingly Random Aggression

    Hi!  I am new to the forum and looking for any insight you have.  My husband and I adopted a female black lab about a year and a half ago.  Today we estimate she's about 5 years old.  When we first adopted her, she was quite timid with new people but warmed up quickly to my husband and I and now is typically not very timid around new people.  Occasionally she barks at the FedEx guy or someone who looks a little unusual on the street.  I'm not exactly sure what triggers her barking, but we assume it is something that she hasn't been exposed to in the past or had a bad experience with before joining us.  It hasn't happened often enough for us to notice a pattern.  I interpret her barking at people to be more excitement than anything else - she barks and jumps - but there's never been any growling, snapping or other more serious types of aggression. 
     
    Recently (past 6 months) there have been a three incidents where she has been aggressive towards another dog.  I'm not sure if this is a new development or just new situations that she's been put into.  All three times were inside (twice at a friend's house and once in ours.)  In all occasions she seemed ok for the first few minutes but then something triggered her to snap at the other dog.  She has never made contact with the dog, but it is an aggressive snap with a growl and bark.  To me it seems like a warning but certainly enough to make both owners nervous.  We have tried to find the similarities between the situations to identify the trigger, but have not had too much luck.  Here's what we've come up with so far: 
    1) twice the aggression seemed to start when she was given a treat (not a quick one, but one that takes a while to chew), however on the third occasion we specifically gave no treats and she snapped when the dog came near her toys and a corner of the couch that we allow her to sit on.
    2) each occasion was a different dog, however we seem to think that all the dogs did not have a dominant personality.  Two were very easy going and one was quite timid. 
    3)  the aggression didn't stop after the initial snap, but continued when the dog would approach her.  Sometimes she would walk right by the dog with no incident and sometimes she would snap - we couldn't figure it out. 
    4) Two of the times she played with the dog outside before entering the house with no incident.  The other time she met the dog in the house (but in this case it was a dog she had met before on other occasions outside.)
     
    My husband seems to think that my presence has something to do with it.  He believes that she does not see me as a leader and is either protecting me or herself in the situation.  I'm not so sure, but she definitely sees him as THE leader.  He has been present for all incidents.
     
    She has not had this reaction with various other dogs in seemingly similar situations.  The most common other occurances I can think of have been with 3 fairly dominant personality dogs.  This is the only link I can make between her encounters.  As hard as I try, I cannot feel calm on the inside when this happens.  I immediately tense up, which everyone says only makes the situation worse.  I try to have my husband take over as I think he stays more calm in the situation.  However I need to be able to properly handle it too.  I have tried tecniques such as isolating her (outside or in a bedroom) - that was not effective, giving a stern "No" and a firm touch with my finger tips to her back to get her attention (NOT a hit! ) and finally keeping her on a leash and correcting her at the first sign of a snarl.  Also, she is regularly socialized with other dogs at the dog park.  She has virtually no aggression issues outside, although she's clearly more interested in exploring than socializing.  The hair on her back usually stands up when she meets a new dog.
     
    I'm looking for advice on how to either prevent such situations from happening, stopping them once they do or some insight into dog psychology to help me understand what is going on in her head and what I'm not doing/doing wrong to prevent it. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ok where to start?
    If you are bringing her to another dog's house or vica versa they should always meet down the street on leash and then proceed to the house.
    Next ALL toys, treats, or anyhting that they may consider a high prize item definitly needs to be put away. Dont give them any treats while they are both there, its not neccessary for any reason. She is resource guarding and you keep putting her in situations where she feels she needs to protect her things. On one hand this isnt desired bahvior in a dog, on the other hand it is common dog manners to hide all toys, treats, and coveted spots.
     
    As for the barking at random postal or delivery drivers that is common dog behavior and is up to you wehter you think it is harmful or not. Ie, does she try and get to the person?
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think to better assess the situation you need to get out of the Dominance mode of thought and start looking for actual physical, quantifiable actions and activities that occur around these incidents. Many dog owners seriously misinterperate the body language their dog and other dogs show, so unless an expert has witnessed the incidents and commented on the "dominant" body language, I'd steer clear of making generalizations in that regard. Most people who see my two dogs interact assume Marlowe is dominant. But if you really look carefully and observe, it's Conrad who's top dog and it's just that he's so magnanimous about his position that he lets Marlowe engage in behaviors that many people interperate as "dominant". And when he wants Marlowe to stop those behaviors, it's extremely subtle. You'd barely notice if you weren't looking for it. Dogs also can be "rude" just like people can be rude and again this has less to do with dominance than with not being well socialized, and it takes some amount of knowledge before you can identify which dog in a 2-dog squabble "started it."

    To me it mostly sounds like resource gaurding. But this is definately a situation in which I'd consult a professional. Handling aggression, no matter what the cause, in an inappropriate way (inappropriate to the dog and the form of aggression) can definately make it worse.

    ETA: Also, agree with Sheprano. And also, snapping and growling are warning shots. Growling is sort of level 1 ("I don't like what you're doing, please knock it off") and snapping is level 2 ("I told you to knock it off, don't make me get all ugly with you"). If no actual fights have happened, the dog is still just warning other dogs about her stuff and her home. It could very well be that the dogs who have come over have been rude, not taking her signals (which humans often don't even notice) and just barrelling in to her space and near her stuff without sending the proper appeasement/politeness signals. Dogs can be kind of socially retarded, just like humans can. Not to say that your dog wasn't the one in the "wrong" because maybe she was, but there's a lot more to it than who was the snapper and who was the snappee.
    • Bronze
    In response to your question about barking at people, I am not concerned about that.  While it's a little embarrassing when it happens, I do not see it as aggressive and it is fairly rare.  I only provided that information in case it would be helpful. 
     
    As for the treats, we are learning as we go here, so learned from our mistakes on that one.  On the third occasion we gave no treats but the toys were out.  I'm not sure if it were the toys, the proximity to her place on the couch (which I can't move) or something else that triggered it.  I will remove toys next time.  Since we only have people over with dogs every once in a while its hard to get a sense of pattern.  I don't think anyone who she's done this to wants to bring their dog back for "practice."  Anyway, sorry for being long-winded. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Also some other things to specualte?
     
    Is she food or treat aggressive towards you or anyone in your family, ie can you go take a treat from her without negative response form her?
    How is her overall obediance?
    Who are these other dogs? strange or well known dogs to her?
     
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I agree that this is normal behavior that dogs exhibit.  She may not be as worried about some dogs taking her stuff as she is about others.  As long as no one is sinking any teeth, a grr or even a rufff at another dog for encroaching on one's "special toys" or a treat, is pretty much to be expected, which is why savvy owners puppy proof the place before allowing the dogs to interact. 
    Not all dogs are happy with doggy visitors inside their home (two of my dogs wouldn't even let a non packmate up the front walk, never mind IN, even though they play very well with others away from home), and dogs really do pick their own friends, which may not be your friends' dogs LOL.

    • Bronze
    In response to your questions:
    She is not food or treat aggressive towards any human.  We have practiced many times taking all sorts of coveted items (food, toys, treats) from her and she immediately releases them with no objection.  She has never shown any aggression to any person that I have observed (other than the random occasional barking that I mentioned before - there are no treats involved with that.)
    Overall obedience - i will put that in two buckets: inside behavior and outside behavior (I'm sure the trainers out there will be screaming at that, but nonetheless...)  Inside:  90% + ;perfect behavior - I couldn't realistically ask for a better behaved dog in the house.  Outside 60-70% obedient - honestly the presence of a squirrel is a deal breaker - she is 0% obedient if she sees a squirrel.  All other situations are pretty good, although this is an area of continuing work for us.  When we adopted her we were told she may never be able to be off-leash.  Now she can in safe situations based on various factors (mostly presence of squirrels).  This will always be a work in progress for us with her.
    Familiarity with other dogs:  first incident - new dog - spent about 2 hrs outside before going inside.  Dogs off leash - maybe should have tried on-leash.  second incident - met other dog once or twice before.  both outside occurances.  third incident - new dog - spend about 10 minutes outside before entering, again off-leash.  maybe should have been on leash.
     
    Thanks to everyone for the continued input.  Overall Pokey is a super pet - I just want to make sure to address any issues before the bigger problem. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Spiritdogs made a good point so I thougth I'd share how Rory does with visitors......
     
    She has been with us since she was a pup so I have a advantage ( I forgot to give my appreciation that you adopted, I admire that so much) but we hadnt had many visitors despite all her puppy play dates.
    I didnt know my friend was bringing her jack russel so as I see them heading up the walk I'm running around grabbing toys and treats. It was going to be tough enough since they were already at the dooor and we didnt get to properly introduce them but Rory was only 9 months and I had puppy mentality on my side.
    anyhoo, lil Minnie (the jack russel) comes in and is instantly on the hunt, nose to the ground. Rory was still trying to get aquainted so she was following Minnie around trying to introduce herself, ie sniffin bums, he he! Sure enough Minnie found a bully stick under the couch, Rory jumped on the couch above Minnie (coveted top spot) and was anxiously whinning and alternatly looking at me. I took the stick from Minnie and they were back to being buddies. Next Minnie ran into my bedroom adn jumped on my bed. Rory the lil tattle tale came running back to me whiniing so loud, I had no choice but to follow her and thats when I found Minnie, took her off the bed and closed the door and they were back to being buddies. It could have went completely differently and I was very proud of Rory but when they left I could see the tole it took on her, she was exhausted from trying to keep this dog in check and its my job to asssit her and not set her up for failure. She was wide eyed and stressed teh whole time, like "Mom, how could you let this lil dog take over my house"? Sure I do not condone having a low tolerant dog BUT if Rory had decided to grab Minnie by the neck and teach her a lesson it would have been my fault. They are not children, they do not have to share and I vowed then and there to never put my girl through that again. They had a wonderful time playing outside, chasing birds, and playing chase.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: jess_p

    In response to your questions:
    She is not food or treat aggressive towards any human.  We have practiced many times taking all sorts of coveted items (food, toys, treats) from her and she immediately releases them with no objection.  She has never shown any aggression to any person that I have observed (other than the random occasional barking that I mentioned before - there are no treats involved with that.)
    Overall obedience - i will put that in two buckets: inside behavior and outside behavior (I'm sure the trainers out there will be screaming at that, but nonetheless...)  Inside:  90% + ;perfect behavior - I couldn't realistically ask for a better behaved dog in the house.  Outside 60-70% obedient - honestly the presence of a squirrel is a deal breaker - she is 0% obedient if she sees a squirrel.  All other situations are pretty good, although this is an area of continuing work for us.  When we adopted her we were told she may never be able to be off-leash.  Now she can in safe situations based on various factors (mostly presence of squirrels).  This will always be a work in progress for us with her.
    Familiarity with other dogs:  first incident - new dog - spent about 2 hrs outside before going inside.  Dogs off leash - maybe should have tried on-leash.  second incident - met other dog once or twice before.  both outside occurances.  third incident - new dog - spend about 10 minutes outside before entering, again off-leash.  maybe should have been on leash.

    Thanks to everyone for the continued input.  Overall Pokey is a super pet - I just want to make sure to address any issues before the bigger problem. 

     
    Well it sounds like she is a great girl and well loved! Dogs dont typically share well with other dogs and I think its great that she is not human aggressive at all. Plus if she actualyl wanted to harm those other dogs she defintly would have, they are not like us humans at all. She has no concious telling her not to bite that dog, not to protect what is hers and she did it as a warning that needs to be headed by the offending dog. Next time, hide everything! [:)]
    • Bronze
    I added a pic so that you all can see what a cutie she is (and not only hear about her temper tantrums!)  Adopting has been an awesome experience for us.  As cute as puppies are, my husband and I liked the idea of adopting and an adult dog suits our lifestyle as well.  We have had a wonderful experience, along with an ounce of luck on our side. 
     
    Sheprano, your last post makes me feel a little better.  I probably need to do a better job with controling the situation in the future.  This being Pokey's longest term residence in her life probably makes her pretty partial to it. I think for now we will try and focus on outside fun where she is comfortable - its tough in the winter, so maybe she will have to stay home sometimes.  My husband thinks I worry to much and that sometimes dogs just don't get along.  Although he's probably right, I just don't want it to escalate past snarling.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Ah, seeing a picuture puts such a different perspective on things, ha ha how could that sweet face get grumpy, ha ha! That was my all time favorite dog for SO long, I love her uniform square head. I see too many watered down versions with knobby or pointy heads.
    Seeing as how she DID allow another dog in her home for a exteneded period of time I think she'll be just fine if she dosnt have to share her stuff, ha ha!
    Anotehr thing to keep in mind is to never coddel or console her when she does this, it will just show her that the behavior is ok. For example I wanted to just grab Rory, hold her and say "I'm sorry Minnie tried to take over" but that would since dogs cant distinguish our words they would just take it as praise from our tone. Its ok to use firm tones to telll her to zip it, he he! Also having her meet the visiting dog on the sidewalk a couple of houses down shoudl help, then its like "hey wanan come play at my house" instead of "what we have a visitor? AND he wants to play with my stuff"? More pics please! [8D]
    • Bronze
    I tried to post some good pics, but they come out too big and the file size has to be so small they look terrible.  Any tips?

    • Bronze
    Sheprano - you said you loved this kind of dog...  We were told she's a lab mix.   All we see is lab in her.  Do you mean a lab or something else?  Someone else told us they saw a little bit of pitt bull in her.  I guess I'm not an educated eye.  I'm interested if you have any ideas.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I can only view the first pic you posted and she looks all Lab to me with that cute nose, floppy ears, and square head. I cant really think of what she might be mixed with and still be all black but maybe try and post some more! We have some pretty good dog breed guessers on here
    • Gold Top Dog
    My two cents:  Your dog is showing incredible patience if she hasn't already outright attacked a dog.  She's doing everything she knows how to keep that other dog plenty warned of her intentions.  She's doing the dog equivalent of  "I'm gonna count to three...." 

    Seriously though, keep all high value items away when there's another dog present.  Don't set her up to fail. 

    There's alot of great advice on this thread.  I can't really add to it, but I can say that you've got quite a good looking pupper there.