Defensive growling = trouble indicator?

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

ORIGINAL: willowchow

Doesn't that suggestion just make the dog think it's king of the world, getting treats while on the bed?  I see the point of treating before he growls, but how is he associating that he's getting a treat because he's NOT growling.  Confused.

What I think is that the association in this case is:  people coming up to the bed I'm on is good-they have good stuff.  (ie; only a positive experience when someone approaches.)

Since there's no growl, the dog doesn't have to associate people with growling behavior-and thus the growly behavior doesn't get reinforced.

Personally I think that bed priviledges should be revoked for a short time.  But that's just me.

If the dog was being bossy or guardy, I'd revoke the bed privileges.  If the dog is just fearful, I'd carefully do some classical conditioning to the presence of others near the bed.  Because we cannot see the dog to really assess this, it's up to the owner to either get professional help (video is helpful, rather than a description) if she thinks she needs it.

As a follow up, don't practice anything on the bed right now. You can have him on the bed IF there is no chance that he'll re-enact his growling behavior. That is, if nobody is coming into your room, near the couch, etc. If your dog is on the ground, he feels like he can get away and that is his first choice, right? He'll withdraw. If he's on the couch or bed, he can't move as quickly and feels trapped.
 
So, don't help him feel trapped and scared--help him learn to like people and help him bond with you so that he can trust you and trust that you'll take care of him no matter what.
 
People toss him treats in the living room, kitchen (away from small areas and doorways where he worries he can't get away), and on walks, and then someday, maybe eons from now, you can start in the bedroom.
 
You might try McConnell's The Cautious Canine from dogwise or Amazon. In her booklet she has you list out the fears, the triggers, etc., and this allows you to really think through the situations and then make a plan for them and for improving unsocialized and scared/fearful behavior.

ORIGINAL: nfowler

As a follow up, don't practice anything on the bed right now. You can have him on the bed IF there is no chance that he'll re-enact his growling behavior. That is, if nobody is coming into your room, near the couch, etc. If your dog is on the ground, he feels like he can get away and that is his first choice, right? He'll withdraw. If he's on the couch or bed, he can't move as quickly and feels trapped.

So, don't help him feel trapped and scared--help him learn to like people and help him bond with you so that he can trust you and trust that you'll take care of him no matter what.

People toss him treats in the living room, kitchen (away from small areas and doorways where he worries he can't get away), and on walks, and then someday, maybe eons from now, you can start in the bedroom.

You might try McConnell's The Cautious Canine from dogwise or Amazon. In her booklet she has you list out the fears, the triggers, etc., and this allows you to really think through the situations and then make a plan for them and for improving unsocialized and scared/fearful behavior.

Best post so far, IMO.  The classical conditioning that you might do with people approaching the bed is only done within the dog's comfort zone.  So, if he does not growl when a person is five feet outside your bedroom door, let that person toss a treat to him.  But, don't then have them move closer yet.  Remember, you would want to set the dog up for success. 

This isn't the CM forum right? So I can go ahead and say what I think, sorta? Cause I gotta unload here - bear with me . . .

t works that way in the human world, too. If I am projecting a calm and assertive energy, I can influence other people to also stay calm or follow me. If I am in a crowd acting agitated, I can change the energy of the entire crowd. In the same way, if a dog is walking through a neighborhood projecting intense, fearful, or excited energy, every other dog inside a house or behind a fence is able to sense that instability. If the dog is in a calm, submissive state, those same dogs are also able to read his energy without a desire to challenge it.

I rarely comment on the CM stuff because I have no way to watch the shows. But I have to say, y'all have totally lost me here. I live on the planet Earth, where we've had this thing called science to apply to dog behavior and training for quite a while now. Even my 60+ year old mentor who learned his trade on the Scottish hillsides, talks in terms of "easing a dog's fears," "helping the dog find answers," "making what is right easy", and "giving the dog the freedom to be wrong."

Please phrase this some way that makes it sound a little less like an Eastern religion (not bashing Eastern religions, but fairly sure dog training shouldn't be a religious practice) or I'm really never, ever, ever going to waste any mental energy on CM again. OR tell me you just made this up yourself and it's not CM. []

I'm thinking that no matter how calm and submissive the old Lab across the street is, that if she comes up my walk onto my property, Miss Sioux will do exactly the same thing she did last time it happened.  Fend off the intruder. []
Hmmm, now that you mention it, Becca, it does seem like a religion of some kind, doesn't it... [sm=uhoh.gif]  Take everything on faith, don't challenge it with science, now what was that about false idols..?

In reference to dogs sensing our feelings, well, I have been upset before, and my dogs certainly pick up on that feeling.....just my personal experience.

Possibly a bit OT but with the whole "sensing feelings" and "sensing energy" stuff..... it's a bit of a facile way to present what is really happening and is misleading.  The dog isn't magically using some sixth sense he's got to pick up "vibes" or "energy".  He has an acute sense of smell and is highly tuned in to the slightest change in posture, breathing rate and body language which indicates a change in someone's mood or even health. 
 
Soooo to drag it back on topic again, if you school yourself to be calm rather than agitated when in a scenario you know the dog finds challenging (eg people approaching when you are in bed), he will pick up on this and it will be a source of reassurance to him.

ORIGINAL: brookcove

This isn't the CM forum right? So I can go ahead and say what I think, sorta? Cause I gotta unload here - bear with me . . .

t works that way in the human world, too. If I am projecting a calm and assertive energy, I can influence other people to also stay calm or follow me. If I am in a crowd acting agitated, I can change the energy of the entire crowd. In the same way, if a dog is walking through a neighborhood projecting intense, fearful, or excited energy, every other dog inside a house or behind a fence is able to sense that instability. If the dog is in a calm, submissive state, those same dogs are also able to read his energy without a desire to challenge it.

I rarely comment on the CM stuff because I have no way to watch the shows. But I have to say, y'all have totally lost me here. I live on the planet Earth, where we've had this thing called science to apply to dog behavior and training for quite a while now. Even my 60+ year old mentor who learned his trade on the Scottish hillsides, talks in terms of "easing a dog's fears," "helping the dog find answers," "making what is right easy", and "giving the dog the freedom to be wrong."

Please phrase this some way that makes it sound a little less like an Eastern religion (not bashing Eastern religions, but fairly sure dog training shouldn't be a religious practice) or I'm really never, ever, ever going to waste any mental energy on CM again. OR tell me you just made this up yourself and it's not CM. []

Hey you dont have to believe me if you dont want to, i think he has 25+ years of experience watching dogs, he is more than able to write about it, he has no PhD so it would not be "scientific" but also it does not mean is not true, no i dont believe in everything i read or hear but i believe that happens because personal experience, i know that if i am aggressive my dog pick up the energy and acts the same way, i know that if i'm sick, my dog picks it up also, i know if i am happy he is, i dont need to talk if i want him to stay in one place, if he picks up the attitude i'm sending he knows i want him to stay, of course there is not scientific prove because i dont think there is a machine or a human that can sense the attitudes you send but you know they exist like i said in my previous post about sensing someone with a "bad vibe" []
 
Correct me if i'm wrong but the book "the other end of the leash" talks about the attitude the dog picks thru the leash, the attitude you are sending to the dog at the moment of walking

There is milk for babes and meat for grown men.... Charitably I am believing that is not what CM really thinks or believes.  Lets not forget one of his talents is self marketing - he wants to appeal to a wide audience and doesn't want to go over anyones heads by using scientific explanations and what may be construed as complete jargon.  So he tries to simplify his knowledge in a way people can understand and thus it is interpreted incorrectly by some of his public. 
 
Or, if I was being cycnical I could say that CM goes on about "energy" and the like rather than giving a true explanation of what is happening because it adds to the "smoke and mirrors" effect you see on TV and makes what he does appear even more simple and magical.  Whereas anyone who knows about animals can see there is a lot more going on than he actually explains. 

Becca,

If you can download or stream podcasts, [linkhttp://caster.wgnradio.com/podcasts/petpod-012-061025.mp3]here's one[/link] you might be interested in. Steve Dale is a pet radio personality in Chicago with his own show called Pet Central. He wanted to have the man on his show and interview him in order to make a fair assessment and help his listeners do likewise. This link is that interview and basically confirms your feelings on this matter. The interviewer keeps asking him to clarify the talk about "zones" and "energy" and he really can't or won't (I'm wondering if it's really more the latter than the former) and even presents him a couple "real life" situations and asks what, exactly, he would do. His suggestion for a dog who has anxiety related to fireworks is for the owner to have calm, assertive energy and put the dog into a calm, submissive state. That's it. The interviewer keeps prodding him and he really won't go farther than that. It's pretty infuriating and you can tell the interviewer is starting to loose patience at his questions getting danced around and non-answered.

Interestingly, prior to the interview, Cesar's "people" refused to have the show be a panel discussion with other behaviorists. It had to be only Cesar. So for his next show, he interviewed a couple applied veterinary behaviorists.