Herding Training Demo - Positive vs Correction Based

    • Gold Top Dog

    Herding Training Demo - Positive vs Correction Based

    I thought these might interest Anne particularly but I hadn't seen any comment over in Sports and Work training - so I thought she might not have seen it.  And thinking about it, it might go here better anyway because of the point I was trying to make. 

    Herding training Ideahas[/i] to be a mixture of reinforcement versus correction based training - you move constantly from one quadrant to the other, sometimes so fast it seems simultaneous.  Sometimes it Ideais[/i] simultaneous, because the sheep, the environment, and I, are all sending signals to the dog, some + some distinctly -.  But we are always looking for ways to make it more positive, because the stock and environmental pressure are almost 100% negative.

    One of the methods for encouraging a particular behavior is much more correction-based.  The day before yesterday, a friend told me about a method she'd come up with (she's a research geneticist and very methodical), based on backchaining.  This was incredibly successful with my little job-oriented dog.  Now I'm trying to figure out other ways to apply this approach.  I already use shaping a lot, as do most modern Border collie trainers.

    Here's the full explanation and the videos:

    [url]http://community.dog.com/forums/t/84200.aspx[/url] 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I don't know I went and watched a series of herding training and thought they were doing it totally backwards- the dogs were put on the sheep before being taught what any of the commands meant, the dogs instincts kicked in and yeah they had to correct the dogs. It made no sense to me to do it that way and I refused to enroll my dog into the next series of classes. You wouldn't just turn your bird dog loose on birds without putting in some serious training beforehand.

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    The problem is that there's only a couple commands that mean anything apart from the stock.  Lie down, which means stop (distance down, same as UD training), and recall.  Even "down" can be flexible - it really means, "Make the sheep stop moving."  Sometimes the dog actually has to move to do that if they try to break one way or another.

    The other commands:

    • Come bye:  circle one way while maintaining the same distance from the flock.  Usually it's clockwise.
    • Away to me: circle the other way while maintaining the same distance from the flock.  Usually counter the clock.
    • Walk up: increase the speed of the stock (it does NOT mean, physically move closer to the stock although that is usually required)
    • Time, Take Time, Steady, Ho, or dog's name: decrease speed of stock.

    Most herding trainers (BC trainers in particular) have no desire to be big meanies.  It really is in our best interest to use the most non-aversive methods possible since herding itself is tough to begin with.  That's why I cringe when I see someone say, "The world is full of pain and adversity so we should use aversives to get the dog used to it." It's not our job to add to the pressure a dog goes under during herding training, it's to minimize it and give him tools to work through it with our help.

    I do have to say that many "all-breed" trainers I've seen were, in my opinion, terribly harsh.

    You have noted yourself that the dogs get reinforcement from being allowed to use their instincts.  So this is how training usually goes (with trainers I respect):

    • The dog is allowed to interact with the stock and instincts kick in.  Please note, however, not all instincts come on line at the same time.  There's not a "herding instinct" per se, but a mixture of play, prey, response to pressure, eye, reactivity, desire to control, and willingness to be a team player.  There's a lot more but those are the ones that we try to get to in the first few sessions.
    • Being allowed to use the instincts freely is the dog's greatest reward.  If I taught a dog to down in all situations, regardless of what was going on, strong enough so he'd do it in the presence of sheep, that means I have some interest strong than the sheep.  The dog will ignore the sheep.  If I tell him, "Good dog!" he thinks not, "I am a good dog because I laid down here."  Rather he connects my praise with what is foremost in his mind - "I am a good dog because I ignored these sheep."  When sheep sense the dog is not in control, they start to bully the dog.  This is a painful experience for a dog bred to work. 
    • So the next step is not to assert control over the dog, but rather to encourage the dog to assert control over the sheep.  I do this by making sure the sheep are the kind that will reward a dog doing even vaguely what he's supposed to, and then moving in such a way that I take up the space where the dog is not supposed to be, and leave open all the space that the dog IS supposed to be.  I may have to correct the dog for trying to ignore me (taking my space), and for any roughness on the sheep.  Otherwise I will leave all the rest alone.
    • Soon the picture is of a dog that is circling around to the other side of the sheep when I move.  At first he does this because I move towards him and he's been conditioned to move into the space I leave.  But soon he does it because it feels good to be in control!  That's the second level of reinforcement and the whole goal of training - dog in control, while the person is only there to provide direction.  Here you will see the dog leave play mode and go into a more balanced use of his instincts.  He relaxes, the sheep relax, and the dog is thinking about sheep, you, and everything.
    • Now he's open to suggestion.  At first I will ask for behaviors that are easy because they are natural things to do.  Ask for lie down when the sheep have already come to a stop, ask for the dog to circle on command while we ourselves change the sheep's direction (or because the dog has to go that way to maintain control).  We will do this for a long, long time.  Ted's two and just start this, though he probably could have started it six months ago if I hadn't screwed him up and had to start over.  My trainer has a dog who started at five months, and just now at a year old is getting to the next step.  Other dogs may stay at this level for years, or a lifetime.

    In these videos, Ted's working on the next level of training.  I need to be able to put him where I need him at times, without it making sense to him from the standpoint of instinct.  Because he's operated for so long knowing these commands but only half listening because he could also rely on his instincts to do the right thing, there's a small battle for control on occasion.  It's well worth the trouble for both of us though.  When he's finished, I'll be able to handle my sheep with him, in an almost entirely stress-free manner.  And there's many situations where being able to put him where he doesn't understand, means less stress for him.

    There's an old saying that good sheep make good dogs (that's a holistic approach that's been around for a century!), and good dogs make good sheep.

    There's no way or reason to pretend that any all-positive reinforcement herding training exists.  But I wanted to show that the herding world is always on the lookout for less aversive ways to do things.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I don't know if I mentioned the Slash V DVD to you before, but it's worth watching;-))

    • Gold Top Dog

    You did mention it.  For $35 plus s&h, can you tell me why I need this video?  I don't do ASCA herding.  I have a LOT of "must have" videos but haven't had the extra money for them - one video is the same as a lesson and I currently need the live lessons more.

    I'm saving my pennies curently for this one (World Champion Aled Owen): http://www.bordercollies.com/shopexd.asp?id=117 

    And this one (English National Champion Derek Scimegeour): http://www.bordercollies.com/shopexd.asp?id=353

    And this one (Int. Supreme Champion and 5 time US Nat Ch. Alisdair McRae):  http://www.bordercollies.com/shopexd.asp?id=356

    And this one particularly (World Team Member David Kennard): http://www.bordercollies.com/shopexd.asp?id=317
     

    • Gold Top Dog

     You probably don't need it.  It's just a nice, if brief, look at Aussies being taught what they need to know by a calm handler with some skill.  I wanted it because Sequoyah has quite a lot of Slash V in her pedigree and I thought it would be interesting.

    • Gold Top Dog

     We had Jim Hartnagle out for a clinic here a few years ago (sponsored by the Aussie club).  It was pretty awesome.  He's a nice quiet guy, really good with things that Aussies consistently present.  He's trained a couple of his dogs - mostly Aussies and one BC I think - up to the highest level in Border Collie style trials, not to mention the numerous WTCh dogs he's trained.  I wasn't sure what to expect when I agreed to help host, but I was very glad I'd done it.

    What's impressive about Aussies to me is that at the very least, on a low level they are consistently interested in stock.  When you tinker with BC genetics, the interest in stock leaves almost immediately.  I've seen many clinics where the handler was practically begging the dog to go to stock, while not one single Aussie, from conformation only lines on up to working lines, bombed completely.  In fact they all worked in the 3 acre paddock exclusively and almost all of them were doing little outruns and stuff by the end of the clinic.  Things that supposedly Aussies aren't good at!

    The next time Bobby Henderson is in the US doing lessons or a clinic, I want to try to go - or Bobby Dalziel.  Their breeding is strong in his lines and it's nice to get the opinion of people who are familar with how those dogs develop.  Usually you get a neat insight.  Bobby Dalziel is a bit more of a practical, "obedience" trainer I know, and Ted's responded extremely well to that phase of his training.

    Aled Owen is cool - they say you can hardly hear him talk, command, or correct, on the video.  He uses the sheep to get the dog working right.  I know a couple tricks but I'd love to be able to watch a master at it, and be able to watch many times over!  That's why that's my first one to get.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

     I was surprised at Sioux having an interest in sheep.  There's a dog who doesn't have much in the way of frisbee or ball drive - toss a tennis ball to her and she can catch it, but she spits it right out as if it has cooties:-))  She is half Aussie, though, and while I think there is probably some Sheltie and Spaniel in there somewhere, too, those are the genes that probably took her off running after the woolies.  She's actually better at it than Sequoyah is, and much more level headed.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I got a couple videos of dogs working very very very tight (close in) to show you how it's not natural in many BCs.  These are Ted's littermates, who were down for the weekend visiting.

    Nash is the least trained of the group - he's been living as a pet but his owner became ill and asked the breeders to take him in for some training:

    Nell is a bit more trained, but still likes to be RIGHT close to the sheep.

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFaJwxtf0_I" target="_blank" title="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YF57FHSUoE 

    Nell is a bit more trained, but still likes to be RIGHT close to the sheep.

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFaJwxtf0_I">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YF57FHSUoE 

    Nell is a bit more trained, but still likes to be RIGHT close to the sheep.

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFaJwxtf0_I 

    BJ is more trained than Ted, but her owner is having more trouble than I am at getting her off, so she's still close even though  she's running USBCHA Nursery.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSLuP9wqIh0

    And here's Ted, same day, same sheep, for comparison:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2hHoFQDd8U 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFIJxvkXZs