Reaction to puppy question

    • Gold Top Dog

    Reaction to puppy question

    I want to describe something that happened a week ago and I'm not sure what to make of it. 

    To preface this, I should say that Kenya has been as a whole very good with other dogs.  Now I've had her less than a year, but I've never seen her growl, lunge, or bark at another dog in an aggressive or reactive manner.  She has made some grunts and short wuffs, but those happen during play. She has gotten along famously with Coke since day one.  She plays very well with our friend's male German Shepherd.  For shows, she rides on the seat and stays in hotel rooms with my friend's female Portie.  At the training club, we let dogs off lead and she has been fine with all the other dogs except the ones that are dog aggressive towards her (in which case she will jump back and run away, or show her teeth and walk away).  Last night at the club, I let her off lead with my friend's Portie and her two Goldens.  Kenya hasn't really met the Goldens before, but she played tug with them and did some wrestling with the younger one.  She had more fun playing with them than she did during class!  This winter, I found a stray Bichon and took him in b/c he was coated in ice and we had a weather warning for the low temperature.  She did not care at all when I took the dog in the house.  He slept between my legs in bed, with Kenya and Coke on their dog beds in our room and there were no issues while he was in our house.  She has also met my friend's Rottweiler and the neighbor's pit bull and played in our yard with both of these dogs.  We've never had any issues coming up to strange dogs on walks (some of them off leash and running loose!) and Kenya has passed her CGC twice already.  So at least up to this point, I'm convinced she's a pretty good dog as far as interacting with other dogs.  Many of the dogs she's met and played with are/were young, like 8-10 months, but all have been fairly large breeds.

    Now last week we were at Kenya's breeders for a club meeting.  I took her along b/c they wanted to see her after the meeting.  Her breeder currently has a little puppy who is a onesie litter.  I'd guess the pup was 12-14 weeks at the time.  We had Coke along and the puppy had a great time chasing Coke in circles around our circle of chairs while DH supervised (he was not part of the meeting).  After the meeting I brought Kenya in.  The puppy ran up to her and started barking in her face.  At first Kenya looked a little surprised and tried to look away, but the puppy kept following her and barking at her.  Then Kenya curled her lip at the puppy, but the puppy did not seem to care and kept trying to jump in Kenya's face.  Kenya was sort of going around the circle, meeting all the people and when that was done the breeder put the puppy in a crate.  She was showing me some training tips and I saw Kenya sniffing at the crate and then walking away, like she wasn't really bothered by the puppy or interested.

    I'm just wondering about this b/c I have very little experience with puppies.  At the shelter, I do not volunteer in the puppy area b/c they are quarantined for disease and you cannot go near them if you work with adult dogs (which I prefer).  I guess I thought that an adult dog would know a puppy is a puppy and allow more annoying behavior, kind of like how we allow babies to cry and whine but not older kids.  Maybe her showing teeth was part of play, I don't know. I mentioned it to my trainer and she said the bottom line is one dog was being rude to another and the other is never out of line for saying "stop" by showing teeth, it doesn't matter that one dog was a puppy.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Kenya sounds like she was being very patient with the puppy and she was being entirely appropriate in her response.  My guess is that the puppy was used to being around familiar adult dogs who would let him do anything to them.  The puppy assumed that all adults would treat him/her the same way.  Kenya was just saying "I don't know you puppy (I am not your mother), so mind your manners."  If a human toddler that you did not know, came up to you and started climbing all over you when you were trying to do something and would not leave you alone, you might tell the kid in a stern voice to go back to their parents.

    Lots of dogs, especially female, aren't crazy about puppies.  I know the sweetest choc lab girl, who has perfect dog to dog manners who does not like puppies younger than say five months.  The first time she met Selli, she growled and barked at her, Selli was crushed.  Now they are great friends. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    I mentioned it to my trainer and she said the bottom line is one dog was being rude to another and the other is never out of line for saying "stop" by showing teeth, it doesn't matter that one dog was a puppy.

    I totally agree with this. When I bring puppies into the home, I have to protect the older dogs from the puppies as well as protecting the puppies from the dogs. I could be wrong, but Kenya strikes me as having some similarities with Cara and she doesn't think twice about telling a puppy to back off in no uncertain terms. There's no reason that Kenya should be expected to put up with rude behavior from the puppy, IMO. Now, how far would she go if the puppy kept at it? And when would the puppy stop being a little jerk? I don't know. I trust Cara completely to NOT hurt the pup, but she has many times "had to" put one in its place.

    I think so far, Kenya behaved perfectly normally.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    Solo pups can have behavioral problems, because they don't have litter mates to help teach them appropriate play and the consequences of being rude. 

    Kenya was great with the little pup. It was being totally obnoxious, and she said "Cut it out" but wasn't even very loud about it!

    I hope that puppy gets time with reasonable but firm adult dogs. Sounds like s/he needs it.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks for the responses.  I just wanted to make sure b/c I've never raised puppies.  I figured that pup might be a little more ballsy b/c she has no sibs to put her in her place, so to speak.  There was one instance where Coke stopped letting her chase him and instead he chased her and ran into her, which is usually how he plays (body slamming).  She yelped and whined and Coke looked rather sad.  I have always heard that's how they teach each other not too be too rough, that was my first time seeing/hearing it.

    I think she will turn out OK b/c this breeder focuses so much on puppy behavior and development.  She is a second generation breeder and owns a training facility so she knows what she is doing.  She did not say anything about Kenya's reaction to the puppy so I figured it can't be that bad or she would have spoken up.  I believe she keeps her dogs in her home, so the pup lives with 3+ adult females.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I would say Kenya was totally in line. When I first bring a pup home - Casey sets the rules. He barks and snaps at the pups to let them know that he is not pleased with what they are doing. He's never biten, or been aggressive at all - just setting the ground rules. Casey is great with pups - and I imagine Kenya is too (after all, she did have 1 litter, so she knows what she's doing) I would just let them be, and let her handle it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    I mentioned it to my trainer and she said the bottom line is one dog was being rude to another and the other is never out of line for saying "stop" by showing teeth, it doesn't matter that one dog was a puppy.

     

    Agreed, a puppy still have a lack of good social manners and not because he is a puppy he will not be annoying, i at that moment would redirect the puppy some place else, showing the puppy that is not acceptable and showing my dog that i'm there to take care of the problem, i would not want my dog to think he is the one that needs to correct the puppy if this happen in the future again 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm expecting our puppy to get snapped at plenty of times. I'm fine with that. Penny is well socialised and gives loads of warnings before she uses her teeth, and she doesn't hurt other dogs. I think it's good for a pup to meet dogs that aren't that tolerant of them. That's how they learn dog language.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    I guess I thought that an adult dog would know a puppy is a puppy and allow more annoying behavior, kind of like how we allow babies to cry and whine but not older kids.  Maybe her showing teeth was part of play, I don't know. I mentioned it to my trainer and she said the bottom line is one dog was being rude to another and the other is never out of line for saying "stop" by showing teeth, it doesn't matter that one dog was a puppy.

    After what feels some days like a million years of multigenerational family both two and four legged a simple curling of a lip, even what seems like serious showing of teeth is just the same as  scolding. I have had older dogs grab a pup by the scruff of the neck and the pup yelp and yalp everyone running ...never broken skin, never more than slobber . Puppy adjusted attitude and Adult learn to set boundries.  Just as you watch a kid with a pup you keep an eye on the pup with the adults. They are cut slack but they don't do it thinking  " Oooh Puppy wuppy is soooo cute I just want to spend a lifetime ...."  They say  " Look Kid if you want to make it to a year you need some manners."

    Everyone is actually pretty cool with it . Good Luck !!

    Bonita of Bwana

    Paws for Peace

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm going to chime in and echo what others have said.  Especially with a singleton pup, socialization is critically important.  Some of them never learn appropriate skills if they aren't tossed in with a bunch or other puppies or take classes really early.  If I had a singleton, it would be in class at age 8 weeks!  Your dog was very appropriate and within her rights;-)) 

    • Gold Top Dog

    We visit Tootsies breeder when she has puppies, so I can get my fix and without fail Tootsie will curl her lip at anyone who gets in her face. Thats as far a it goes too. Good girl Kenya.

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs

    I'm going to chime in and echo what others have said.  Especially with a singleton pup, socialization is critically important.  Some of them never learn appropriate skills if they aren't tossed in with a bunch or other puppies or take classes really early.  If I had a singleton, it would be in class at age 8 weeks!  Your dog was very appropriate and within her rights;-)) 

     

    You know I was loosely considering a pup from this litter (I like the bitch), but now I'm glad I didn't pursue it since she's the only one!  I'm sure she is in puppy class, the breeder IS the trainer for all the puppy classes.