Beyond NILIF-whatcha think?

I do not believe that dogs view human beings as if they were other dogs. However, I am convinced that when humans act in specific ways that dogs usually react in a predictable manner.

LCK: True. I agree.

dogs send social messages to other dogs with their urine.

LCK: Oh, really? How do they know another dog is going to come along and sniff it? And how do they know, that when this hypothetical, purely imaginary dogs does sniff it, what his reaction is going to be? To do this would take a lot of foresight, planning and hypothetical thinking for an animal who lives almost entirely in the here and now.

Dogs do not need to assert their ownership over a large territory; some dogs who mark the same places on a regular basis become quite territorial.

LCK: Overmarking is a sign of stress. It has nothing to do with “ownership” of a large territory. That’s patently ridiculous. (There's a direct link between the production of cortisol and vasopressin, which means that stress causes an increase in urine production.)

If your dog is in the habit of marking during walks on lead, take control of his pee-mail. Give him (or her) two chances to urinate at home and then insist that your dog keep up with you during your walk. You may have to use a head halter to give you control over your dog’s nose.

LCK This is nuts. Instead of fixing the problem by attacking the behavior, you need to remove the internal stress the dog is feeling. He’ll either automatically mark less. If not, I say let him have his little stress-reducing "rituals."

Having your dog do a thirty minute down stay every day helps teach your dog how to be patient and just relax.

LCK: It depends on how it’s taught. A daily five minute sit/stay, taught through my “Trick-of-Treat” exercise, will have much more of a calming effect than a down/stay taught through force. That’s because the “Trick-of-Treat” automatically stimulates the dog’s natural motor patterns for patience (the eye stalk). And a two minute session of “Eyes” will have the same effect as the 5 min. session of T-or-T.

Controlling the best spots to sleep are one of the games dogs play with each other to establish authority.

LCK: This kind of thinking is so last century. There is no way a dog can even conceive of the idea of having his own authority, or "respecting" another's authority. These are dogs we're talking, not Eric Cartman. Making an issue of where you sleep is just another form of resource guarding, which is an anxiety-based behavior. It has nothing to do with showing your "authori-tay!"

If your dog has a favorite place to sleep (a particular corner or dog bed), make sure to take control of that place at least once a day by making your dog move out of it and then sitting or standing in it yourself for a few minutes.

LCK: This is idiotic, crazy stupid and unnecessary.

In dog society, the lesser-ranked dogs have to move around the higher ranked dogs.

LCK: That’s funny. They move away from dogs that they feel social resistance towards. It has nothing to do with rank, which is conceptual. And you can't chase, bite, or pee on a concept.

If your dog is lying in your way, shuffle your feet and shuffle right through him. You don’t want to hurt him (that’s why you’re shuffling) but you do want him to move for you.

LCK: Nothing wrong with this, but the rationale (showing the dog that you have a higher rank than he does) is just dumb.

In dog society, the dog able to control the most resources is usually the highest ranked.

LCK: This is such an outdated mindset. There are no ranks in dog society. Besides, resource guarding is a symptom of anxiety.

Dogs need physical exercise to stay physically and mentally healthy. Make sure your dog is getting 30 minutes of aerobic exercise every other day.

LCK: I’d say 20 mins., twice a day. And it should be hard vigorous playful, outdoor exercise.

Avoid retrieve games if your dog doesn’t play nicely.

LCK: No, don't avoid fetch and tug. You should teach your dog how to play nicely, not avoid playing them altogether.

Playing nicely means respecting your space when you have possession of the object (in other words, not leaping on you to rip it out of your hands), bringing the object directly back to you and allowing you to take the object out of his mouth.

LCK: Yes, but if you teach the dog how to play, in a way that satisfies his instincts, he’ll do all of these things automatically.
I'm sure some of these things work. They're in the NILIF mode, clearly. It's the rationale behind them that's wacky, in my view.

LCK 

It sure is a lot of info to take in, lol!

I think it's a lot of nonsense, really. If a dog did things like that, I'd think they were rude and pushy. I think our goal with dogs should be to live in harmony. Being pushy, demanding, and forceful isn't a good way to live in harmony with someone/thing. And I doubt it's a particularly good way to foster trust in your furry pal.

And if I stopped letting my dog do her pee-mail thing she'd think I'd turned mean and wouldn't enjoy her walks so much. Fascinating thing I've noticed about the pee-mail... I've walked Penny extensively through this large patch of bush back home. On paths, off paths, everywhere. She'll mark all the way along the road to the bush, then she'll mark at the gate, then that's it until we come out again. In fact, I thought it intriguing that if we're off the paths in the bush on our own, and we see another person, Penny gets a warning, guardy look about her and will bark quietly until the person leaves. She doesn't do that anywhere else but in her own backyard.

My conclusion from all this is off the paths where no one goes, there is no pee-mail and my dog figures she owns it. My dog doesn't mark places she owns, only places she visits. 

Believe it or not, LCK, I agree with your entire post, as it is written.

Even though I have supported the position that dogs can think and I often think they have a little more cognitive ability than you might agree to, I do agree that some of the concepts do pose the suggestion that dogs think like humans do with a human concept of future action and that dogs do not show this ability to us, as yet. Any territorial behavior would be, imo, resource guarding. And some of the resource guarding is, indeed, a mere show of tension and once the dog realizes that there is no danger to the resource, tension is reduced. You can't get rid of tension, you can only answer it, hopefully in a successful manner that channels to a resolution. On that note, I can see the value of the motivation in your system. Some of these things, like stepping through the dog are what Mudpuppy has referred to as vodoo rituals. And do not account for breed, etc.

Shadow's predominate breed traits are unique but suffice it to say that he will not eat unless I am present. And that is not something I have trained, it's just a naturally observed behavior.

Also, he can lie on the floor and I will step around him or over him. But if he is on the sofa and I need him to move in order to sit down, I say "move" and he does. At least with him, being on the sofa is not about "dominance" it is about actually sharing space with us humans, something I think is good.

I can appreciate that the quoted article is designed for people having problems with their dogs and the institution of "rules of engagement" can be a good thing, by providing some structure and routine to which the dog can become accustomed. I just don't agree with the reasoning of the author.

AuroraLove

.........

Mind Game #1: No More Kibble From Heaven!
Free feeding is the equivalent of kibble from heaven--some dogs seem to imagine that they own their bowl and that the food appears whenever they want it.

Feed your adult dog twice a day (puppies may need 2-6 meals per day depending on age and health status). Before you put the bowl down, have your dog do a sit. If your dog tries to dive on the bowl before you give him permission to eat, pick up the bowl and start over. When your dog stops eating and walks away from the bowl, pick up any remaining food and dispose of it.

Mind Game #2: No Free Lunches!
Dogs that never have to do anything to earn their living (their food) can become very spoilt. They see no reason to obey their owner at any time because they can get what they want (food) without any conditions at all.

At least four times a week feed your dog his entire meal from your hand. Divide your dog’s meal up into 15-25 parts (depending on the size of your dog, this might be anything from individual kibbles to small handfuls). Have your dog perform a simple command for every part of his meal. It doesn’t have to be complex--it can be sits, downs, stand, shake hands, salute, roll over, etc.

If your dog is overly rough about how he takes food, work on his eating-from-your-hand skills with his first meal fed this way. If he tries to grab the food roughly from you, pull your hand away, give him a short time out, then offer the food again. If your dog refuses to carry out known commands, quietly put his food away until the next regularly scheduled meal. It’s completely up to him whether he eats or not--don’t try to convince him. Let him discover where his own best interests lie!
............

¨ Mind Game #1: No More Kibble From Heaven!
¨ Mind Game #2: No Free Lunches!
¨ Mind Game #3: No More “Pee-Mail”!
¨ Mind Game #4: Patience!
¨ Mind Game #5: Learning His Place!
¨ Mind Game #6: Taking Back Your Space!
¨ Mind Game #7: Follow the Leader!
¨ Mind Game #8: Take Control Of Your Dog’s Body!
¨ Mind Game #9: S/he Who Owns the Most Toys Wins!
¨ Mind Game #10: Daily Chores!
¨ Mind Game #11: A Healthy Mind in a Healthy Body!
¨ Mind Game #12: Rewards From Daily Life!

Upfront, it cost me $102 for thyroid test with the sample sent to MSU.

I hope people see themselves in the Original Post.  Because I do and this is not "Beyond" but typical NILIF.  Again with the food to get the dog to do the humna's bidding.....so wrong!  I don't manipulate or tease my residence dogs or fosters with food and I can safely say I never encounter the problems listed in the OP.  And my pack of six is constantly changing with the fosters being adopted and new ones coming in.  I work on satisfying the dog's need for food and make it secondary to the pack's fun social event.  Like air, food is absolutely necessary for life and should be a given for the dog.  To yo-yo these basic survival need is wrong.  I am so disappointed in the dog professionals and people who have done extensive studies on the dog that they haven't moved beyond this and work with the dog's most highly prized reward - AFFECTION.  To me, its about building a trusting relationship and food manipulation creates mistrust. 

corvus

My conclusion from all this is off the paths where no one goes, there is no pee-mail and my dog figures she owns it. My dog doesn't mark places she owns, only places she visits. 

I don't know how exactly she figures she owns anything, especially real estate. (Does she also draw maps?)

To me it seems that dogs urinate on things that create some feeling of tension in them. I live in New York and my corollary to your example would be that on the way to Central Park Freddie would lift his leg on things where other dogs had left their urine, on inorganic objects like trash bags, and on vertical objects like light poles. All create tension. Once we got to the park, the marking would generally lessen, and would stop entirely if we went to a remote part of the park called The Ramble, which was his favorite spot. On the way home he'd start marking again as soon as we got closer to the city streets.

In observing his behavior I never once got the impression that he was marking his territory. To me that idea is completely ludicrous. Did he ever recognize another dog's scent? Absolutely. He had a best friend named Mickey, an intact Lab/pit bull mix, who lived down the block. Whenever he saw Mickey his tail did a very specific wagging motion. One night, on our evening stroll, he sniffed a pile of newspapers left on the curb across the street from Mickey's building, and his tail went crazy. He kept sniffing and wagging. From time to time he seemed almost ready to lift his leg and pee on the papers himself, but seemed to be getting more of a jolt out of sniffing them than he would by peeing on them.

Finally, I said, "Is that Mickey? Do you smell Mickey?" and he looked up at me, then looked around, didn't see Mickey, and so he started sniffing the newspapers again. He never did lift his leg on those papers. Why pee on a scent that already makes you feel happy?

The next day I asked Mickey's owner if her dog had peed on that stack of papers. She had to think about it a bit, of course, but once she did she realized that he had.

So dogs definitely pick up information from another dog's scent. I just don't how one can rightly say they leave "pee-mail" or use their own scent to "report" anything to another hypothetical dog who may or may not come along later, and may or may not have a pre-determined reaction to their scent, or "mark" anything so abstract as "territory." Yes, I've seen intact males get into a "pissing contest" where each one had to repeatedly pee on the other's "mark." Where they thinking, "No! This is my lamppost!" -- "No, it's mine!" or were they just feeling more relaxed when they could smell their own scent as opposed to that of a strange dog?

To me the idea that dogs use their urine to mark territory is part of the folklore that gives us the impression that dogs are capable of higher levels of thought than what their brains can actually process. When looked at from emergence theory -- where the dumber the parts the smarter the system -- maybe they actually do mark their territory. But that's only the result of embodied embedded cognition, not the result of the conscious, deliberate intent of each individual dog to send a message or report information. In other words, the information is clearly there but the intent to report it clearly isn't. How could it be?

LCK

Lee Charles Kelley

Controlling the best spots to sleep are one of the games dogs play with each other to establish authority.

LCK: This kind of thinking is so last century. There is no way a dog can even conceive of the idea of having his own authority, or "respecting" another's authority. These are dogs we're talking, not Eric Cartman. Making an issue of where you sleep is just another form of resource guarding, which is an anxiety-based behavior. It has nothing to do with showing your "authori-tay!"

If your dog has a favorite place to sleep (a particular corner or dog bed), make sure to take control of that place at least once a day by making your dog move out of it and then sitting or standing in it yourself for a few minutes.

LCK: This is idiotic, crazy stupid and unnecessary.

In dog society, the lesser-ranked dogs have to move around the higher ranked dogs.

LCK: That’s funny. They move away from dogs that they feel social resistance towards. It has nothing to do with rank, which is conceptual. And you can't chase, bite, or pee on a concept.

If your dog is lying in your way, shuffle your feet and shuffle right through him. You don’t want to hurt him (that’s why you’re shuffling) but you do want him to move for you.

LCK: Nothing wrong with this, but the rationale (showing the dog that you have a higher rank than he does) is just dumb.

In dog society, the dog able to control the most resources is usually the highest ranked.

LCK: This is such an outdated mindset. There are no ranks in dog society. Besides, resource guarding is a symptom of anxiety.

I have 6 Mammoth Beds in the living room for each of the dogs.  There are multiple "favorites" beds having to do with comfort and having to do with proximity to the Lazy Boy which I get.  Which ever dog gets to the bed first gets it but there is no jockeying.  The other dogs respect that as an order of things and they seem to know the dog will eventually get up and then the bed will be free for another.

One thing that I have observed time and time again is the order the dog's put themselves for going through the back door.  Going out there is no order but for coming in there is always a set order.  A residence dog is always the first and the last to come in.  The other dogs work out an order and then that order seems to always be the same, until a new foster is introduced and then the order changes except for the 1st and last dog.

 Ahhhhh....

This is why I have easy dogs!  Maybe it is just my personality, but if I had a dog who I had to use this kind of control technique with, I would not enjoy having a dog.  I would not be a dog person or a dog "owner." 

Well, I've seen both Penny and Pyry mark things on the public route they were very interested in. Pyry marks places where prey animals have obviously been, or places where a bird has lost some feathers in a row, for example. Penny marks fresh Eucalyptus branches. It's possible she finds the smell of those stressful, but somehow I doubt it when she's always so intent to thrust her face into the leaves, walk right into the thing, and stand there for inordinate amounts of time just poking around. She marks piles of raked leaves as well, which she loves to walk through. Penny is also a serious over-marker. She marks over where Jill has been and over where Pyry has been. I don't consider any of that behaviour territory marking. That's just her leaving post-its of where she's been in a world that doesn't smell like her. She doesn't need to know where she's been in her own backyard, or in the bush where other dogs are rare. And there are no other dogs to take note of her post-its, either. Interestingly, if a strange dog turns up in her yard or her bush, suddenly she's putting post-its here and there.

Dogs are territorial, though. Even if they're territorial only because we are. I've been rushed at by too many dogs only to have them stop and supervise my departure once I reach the invisible line that is apparently the end of their sphere of influence.

And I doubt my dog thinks she owns real estate. I think she sees the world as made up of public routes and places other dogs think are theirs. I've seen the way she handles a dog that's behaviour territorially, and I don't think she thinks the dog is defending its territory. She seems to think she has a right to walk on public routes without being bothered by territorial dogs, but you should have seen her go off at the spaniel that ran into our yard to get his ball (which ultimately resulted in me accidentally locking her in the house and me out of it). And she gets upset when strange humans or dogs come and mess around in her yard. She was very much against the man that came to trap our problem possums, despite him being a very dog-loving guy.

I haven't thought about this much, but my feeling is that dogs defend a territory from strangers, but don't seem to think other dogs should defend territories from them. If that makes sense.