Natural dog training - pushing

Lee Charles Kelley

I'm sorry for that. The only thing I read was what seemed to me to be a very cryptic statement of yours, something to the effect of, "so I did the exercise and guess what happened?" Well, I don't know what happened. That's a mystery to me.

 

I'll spell it out for you.  There was food a short distance from her.  My hand was on her chest.  She PUSHED.  Hard enough to push an adult to the ground if they weren't expecting it.  Might that indicate I did something right while attempting the exercise in the week leading up to the incident?

The problem was, I wasn't expecting her to do that (maybe I am just stupid) and she went straight past my hand.  Her momentum knocked my 12month old son over and he banged his head.  She didn't even GET the food as it happened, but that wasn't such a huge deal because for all I know she was after that feeling of SUCCESS! as much as a tidbit.  The pushing in and of itself (can I get to that? can I? can I? can I?!!!!) was a great game.  I'm tempted to believe that the food (and perhaps the fact we were outside) was the signal to her we were playing that game again, as much as the sausage was simply tasty-smelling. 

That's what made me drop the exercise more than anything else.  If you think that means I'm "not really interested", then fine.  Admitted I am infinitely more interested in keeping my son and his head in one piece than I am in proving a point about dog training.  If that negates my interest in "pushing" in your eyes, so be it.

Chuffy

I'll spell it out for you.  There was food a short distance from her.  My hand was on her chest.  She PUSHED.  Hard enough to push an adult to the ground if they weren't expecting it.  Might that indicate I did something right while attempting the exercise in the week leading up to the incident?

Not necessarily. It might, but I couldn't say for sure. I'm still not getting a clear picture of what happened. Sorry, you didn't really spell it out. How big is the dog? Were you sitting or standing (I assume you were sitting)? Why was your hand on her chest, because you saw that she was interested in the food item, or was it just resting there (I assume you put it there to prevent her from going after the food)? I don't know if your hand was in the same position as when you'd done the exercise, I don't know why you were doing the exercise (what behavioral problems you were working on), I don't know if you were in the same general position relative to her as when you did the exercise, etc. If all of these things were exactly the same, then I'd give more credence to the idea that the exercise may have juiced this behavior beyond what she would've ordinarily done in the same situation prior to pushing. But even if that were so, I'm not sure I'd come to that conclusion. I might, I just don't know if I would or not.

Chuffy

The problem was, I wasn't expecting her to do that (maybe I am just stupid) and she went straight past my hand.  Her momentum knocked my 12month old son over and he banged his head.  She didn't even GET the food as it happened, but that wasn't such a huge deal because for all I know she was after that feeling of SUCCESS! as much as a tidbit.  The pushing in and of itself (can I get to that? can I? can I? can I?!!!!) was a great game.  I'm tempted to believe that the food (and perhaps the fact we were outside) was the signal to her we were playing that game again, as much as the sausage was simply tasty-smelling.

In my experience this is bit of a stretch. But who's to say? You were there and you know your dog. I, meanwhile, have more experience with the exercise.

Chuffy

That's what made me drop the exercise more than anything else.  If you think that means I'm "not really interested", then fine.  Admitted I am infinitely more interested in keeping my son and his head in one piece than I am in proving a point about dog training.  If that negates my interest in "pushing" in your eyes, so be it.

I don't know. I don't enough about your dog's behavioral tendencies to be able to say if this behavior was a direct result of you having done the exercise, or if you did it "properly" or not. I tend to see a single event as insufficient data. Two similar events can be coincidence, three may be the start of a pattern. It's only when you get four events of the same type, taking place in very similar conditions, with similar dogs, etc., that I'm comfortable drawing conclusions. However, I don't blame you for blaming the pushing exercise. If I were in your shoes, and my child had been injured due to a sudden new behavior that my dog had never exhibited before I'd definitely err on the side of caution, so to speak.

I'm not sure why you seem so defensive, though. I thought you had said that you weren't interested in the exercise. I wasn't making any judgments about you or your level of interest, etc. I was simply (at least in my mind) re-stating what you had already said.

But again, now that I know what happened, and that you (perhaps rightly, I don't know) attribute your child's injury to the pushing exercise, I still don't know anything about your dog's previous background, her behavioral tendencies, etc. And from what I've observed (and I have done this a few times), dogs won't push against you in the same way they do during the exercise unless you've got food in your hands and they know you're doing the exercise. In fact, in my experience they're very specific and very exact about this.

Meanwhile, here are the steps to doing the exercise properly:

   1. Start by just getting your dog used to being fed by hand and to the fact that YOU have lots of good food.  Take small amounts of food out of the pouch and offer it to your dog, letting her take the food from you without providing any resistance.  You might need to crouch down for a small dog.  For an especially timid dog, you might even need to start out by tossing food at her from a distance, encouraging her to come closer by tosses that land nearer and nearer to you.

   2. As you’re feeding your dog, mix in some praise in a relaxing tone of voice.

   3. Back away a step or two and use the food to encourage your dog to come to you.  Feed the dog a little bit more.  Note: NEVER move TOWARD your dog.  Always move AWAY.  This is part of becoming more prey-like in your dog’s eyes.

   4. Start calling your dog’s name as you offer the food to her.  Call her name in an eager, excited tone.

      At this point, the exercise will be something like this:
      Back away a couple steps.
      “Sparky!” (eager, excited, good dog tone)
      Feed the dog, offering praise in a relaxed tone.

      Once your dog is reliably taking steps toward you for food, in a relatively uninhibited manner, it’s time to incorporate your left hand.

   5. Before you do anything, practice the following position: Put food in your right hand.  Hold both hands comfortably in front of you (elbows bent), with your right hand above your left hand by a couple of inches (max).  Your right hand should be cupped around the food, while your left hand should be held open, palm-up, and a few inches in front of your right hand.  Your right hand, though closed, should also be palm up.  Move your hands around as a unit - just getting used to their being in close proximity to each other.  One of the biggest mistakes that people make with pushing is having their hands too far apart to push effectively.

   6. Now call your dog’s name and let her come across your left hand with their muzzle to get the food from your right hand.  Don’t do anything with your left hand yet - the goal is just to get her accustomed to having your left hand there.

      It’s important for you to register what’s going on with your dog.  Is she getting tense?  Take a break from the feeding, and take some steps to relax her.  Give her some good, long massaging strokes, or take a break to play some tug of war.  The more relaxed she is, the more focused she'll be on this exercise.

      Also, take note of how your dog is approaching you.  You want your dog to come directly towards you in order to get the food.  If your dog is moving to one side or another to approach at an angle, that’s a sign that she's getting stressed, and you want to take steps to relax her.

   7. Slowly, slowly, slowly introduce some action with your left hand.  You should think of your left hand as trying to SOFTEN and relax anything that it comes in contact with.  While your right hand holds onto the food (i.e. the dog is trying to GET the food, but you have your thumb across the food keeping the dog from getting it), your left hand will slowly massage her muzzle and neck.  Keep it very gentle at first, just to get her used to the sensation, and then gradually increase the depth of the massage.  At all times your left hand should massage the dog slowly and deliberately.  Just do a little bit of massage at a time, then let your dog get the food from your right hand.  Again, if your dog backs away then you stimulated her too much before letting her get the food - next time let her have the food SOONER (or massage her less).

      IMPORTANT:  Your dog will only tolerate the massaging as long as she's interested in getting the food.  Once your dog gets the food, there is no longer any incentive for her to put up with the contact from you.  This whole exercise is about building up the duration of time that your dog can handle the direct contact from you as she tries to get the food.  Since that incentive goes away once she's gotten the food, you should stop massaging/pushing as soon as your right hand has given the food.

   8. As your dog gets used to the massaging action of your left hand, don’t forget the other aspects…back away a few steps, call your dog’s name, tempt the dog with the food in the right hand while you massage with the left hand, give the dog the food and praise.

   9. As your left hand makes contact with your dog, gradually position it further down to the base of the neck where it meets the chest.  This is ultimately where you want to be.  Once you’re there, keep up with the slow massaging, so that your dog gets used to having your hand there.  You might also notice at this point that your dog will provide some counter pressure, pushing against you as you massage her chest.  This is exactly what you want!

  10. Transition your left hand from massaging into an ever-so-slight push against your dog’s chest (right at/below where the neck meets the chest).  It is now MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER that you be gradual - just give a slow, deliberate push so that your dog pushes back, then release the push and let her have the food.  As you push, you should constantly be feeling the situation and matching the level of push that your dog is giving you.  Once she gets comfortable with the push, you can start praising as well (something like “good push…push, push, push…” etc.).

  11. Work on moving slowly backwards as you push with your left hand.  This can be harder to do than it sounds, because our tendency is to move FORWARD as we push.  So pay attention to maintaining the push with your left hand while you move backwards with your feet.  Take time to make sure that you got it right!  It’s important to keep the exercise moving backwards (i.e. the dog is moving towards you while you move backwards) because it is both encouraging the dog to move towards you in a state of drive and it also keeps the energy flowing.

  12. Gradually (are you getting the key word yet?) increase the amount that you push.  As your push increases, so should your dog’s level of pushing back.  Ultimately, you want your dog to REALLY be driving at you for the food.  Your dog will eventually push so hard that the front paws might come up off the ground.  That’s good too!  If your dog keeps pushing against your left hand with their front legs off the ground as you move backwards - using their back legs to drive right towards you, then you have gotten to where you want to be.

  13. As a subtle nuance, you can start saying “Ready…” before you call your dog’s name.  So you’d say “Ready…Sparky!” as the pushing game begins.  Think of “ready” as if you’re saying “may I have your attention!” - it’s the cue that the pushing is about to happen.  Do not focus on making your dog wait - say ready, then call your dog’s name to “release” her into the pushing.  Eventually you can incorporate the “ready” into your work with the “stay” (as a way of building her anticipation before the release) - but don’t worry about that now.  “Ready” also becomes a powerful cue for your dog - in the early stages of my training Nola, for instance, I could just say “Ready…” as she was about to chase a squirrel, and she would come running towards me for a push instead.

Sorry for the long post, and I did my best to pare down Neil Sattin's verbiage. But I think it's important to have this as a reference for not only your benefit, but others who may have read this only once before in passing, or not at all.

I hope this helps,

LCK 

Thank you for the detailed description LCK.  Now what's next after the dog is pushing and energize, playing catch or tug?  I remember you saying that once the dogs arousal is heighten you have to do something with it?  Do you have to play and release energy after each session, even the beginning early stages? or only once you really get the dog to push hard?

What kind of play do you do?  How long after a pushing session should you play.  Does running play the same part or is tug and pulling more important to the exercise.  I seem to think there is more to do....   than the pushing, or does it stop there?  Could you elaborate?

Now I get a different sense of what the exercise is for. A dog desiring to come to you by pushing through obstacles, physical and emotional. If they can overcome the resistance of your hand, they can overcome the resistance of inhibition, perhaps overcome the resistance to recall presented by other distractions. However, that sounds like a generalization and I don't see in the exercise where you would link the behavior to a recall word. And I am sure I am getting the reason all wrong, and I did do the exercise wrong, and, as you say, practically not at all.

Or, the idea is that the dog sees you as prey and will pursue as they would pursue prey, which is with concentration and speed. The idea being, I guess, to make you the more desireable prey than that squirrel or other dog or cat. But my dog does not act toward me the way he does towards prey. He stalks prey and then pours on a burst of speed. With me, he's happy to recall because I have good stuff. So, from what I can see of my dog, if he were to pursue me as prey, he would stalk, flank, then explode to full speed in one or two leaps.

Unless, he could think of me as prey but not stalk me as such and play a prey game with me by recalling which sounds like him having cognition and the ability to differentiate between a real prey and a pretend prey.

Yes, I used to be in the paradigm of dominance. And I changed. From immediate results I could see, no matter how fumble-fingered I was. It was so easy, even an electrician could do it. But, as I can see now, I missed a whole series of steps and time to this exercise. And perhaps I should have assessed more carefully beforehand just how necessary this exercise might be. And, maybe, I haven't found enough value in your paradigm to shift to it, which is not to say that yours doesn't have value. I think you had originally snuck in some QM and I prefer the wave theory of QM to that of General Relativity, as I was telling someone recently.  But I haven't seen where the use of it deepens my understanding of dog behavior. The problem with energy theories is that they are the study of the infinitely small and it's always leading to a smaller particle. For example, are there constituent parts to a muon? Sorry to digress. But it leads me back to my point that while one can reduce everything to an energy flow, one loses sight of the patterns that make sense in the everyday world. So, I can clarify a statement I made earlier about things being easier in newtonian than in QM. That doesn't mean QM is wrong, but, for most engineering purposes, newtonian works just fine. I think it's the same with dog behavior and psychology. And for that, I haven't found sufficient reason to abandon the paradigm I now use. So, in simile, you theory has some value and in some cases, might be even more accurate, but would be beyond the limits of accuracy we need or use.

luvmyswissy

Thank you for the detailed description LCK.  Now what's next after the dog is pushing and energize, playing catch or tug?  I remember you saying that once the dogs arousal is heighten you have to do something with it?  Do you have to play and release energy after each session, even the beginning early stages? or only once you really get the dog to push hard?

What kind of play do you do?  How long after a pushing session should you play.  Does running play the same part or is tug and pulling more important to the exercise.  I seem to think there is more to do....   than the pushing, or does it stop there?  Could you elaborate?

All of this depends on the dog. As a general rule the exercise is designed to increase drive flow. If you need to have your dog's drive flow more toward you than toward external stimuli, you would want to then play games where the dog chases you, for instance. (It's usually a good idea to have a toy with you when you do this as chasing induces most dogs to want to bite what they're chasing, so you can get your shirtsleeves ripped, etc.) If your goal is simply to increase your dog's desire and ability to play, then you'd use the exercise to get the juices flowing and immediately play tug or fetch, depending on the dog's individual temperamental choice for either one. If the dog is too distracted to walk next to me, I'll sometimes use the pushing exercise just before doing an energetic "heel" session. One of the things that puzzled yet intrigued me about Kevin Behan's book is that he said that after a session of teaching the down he sometimes rewards the dog by having him do an energetic heel--that made no sense to me at the time (reward the dog by having him heel?); it does now. With a case of separation anxiety, I'll get the dog's juices flowing with the pushing exercise, and maybe even have the dog bark on command (and I'm always looking for a strong, deep, demanding bark: "Give me the food, damn you!";). Once he's really revved up, I'll have him do a long down/stay, especially what I call the "peek-a-boo" stay, where he has to stay while I'm out of sight. (And no, I don't just pop him into a down immediately; I let him work up to it, but also present it as a challenge.)

I think you get the general drift. You use the increased drive flow to allow the dog the opportunity to plug that newfound energy into something that's going to be both helpful in solving a particular behavioral problem, and that gives the dog a stronger, expanded feeling of reward by actually getting to do the exercise. In other words, the dog gets revved up and is thinking, "Okay, now what?" and you say, "Heel!" or "Fetch!" or "Stay!" Then, once the dog plugs his energy into those behaviors, he feels that the behavior itself is tremendously rewarding. More so than other forms of reinforcement.

I hope this helps explain things a little better.

LCK 

Yes it is clearer now, thank you.  I would definitely have to take my time with River, he would never push into me for food.  He has always been taught not to "push" me for food but to wait patiently - being he is a resource guarder.  Now I understand better how to elicit the behavior through slow progress.

ron2

Now I get a different sense of what the exercise is for. A dog desiring to come to you by pushing through obstacles, physical and emotional. If they can overcome the resistance of your hand, they can overcome the resistance of inhibition, perhaps overcome the resistance to recall presented by other distractions.

 

I thought this was very well said and just wanted to say that that's how I've seen it from the beginning.

I don't have any problem making the link. Sometimes we can't see, touch, feel or even understand every link in the chain, but the final result "proves" that the link is there (to me). I don't have to fully understand it to believe it. Like life after death.

DH was just outside playing frisbee with B'asia. She does it on her own terms, but she's doing it! She didn't before. She wouldn't turn "her prey" over to us. But now, playing with us (engaging us) is more important than keeping her prey from us.  

And Shadow would normally not bring back a thrown toy but thanks to the fetch we've worked on, he will return and drop it in my lap. So, for different dogs, different techniques and different timing.

ron2

And Shadow would normally not bring back a thrown toy

 

But why? Why wouldn't he bring it back? The difference (I suspect) is that B'asia fully knew how the game goes, she was just way too protective of the toy to give it back. I worked on fetch with her, several different methods, and she wouldn't relinquish it, even though she knew that's what I wanted. She's watched Jaia fetch several thousand times. She knows the game, she just couldn't let "her prey" go.

And then, like "magic", after doing the pushing exercise for about a week and a half, she started bringing it closer and closer and then she started dropping it and now, she's actually returning it and fully engaged in the game.

I suppose it could be a timing coincidence, but I don't think so. Several other of her "quirky" behaviors changed at about the same time.

FourIsCompany

But why? Why wouldn't he bring it back? The difference (I suspect) is that B'asia fully knew how the game goes, she was just way too protective of the toy to give it back.

Exactly right. Or almost exactly. The way I'd put it is that she had a feeling that you wanted her to bring the toy back but her attraction to it was stronger than her attraction to you; having it in her mouth felt more "right" to her flow of energy than giving it up. In other words the feeling of having her energy locked on to the toy in her mouth was a source of pleasure, so it made no sense to her emotionally to give that up. And the strange thing is that by teaching her to push into you to eat -- which one might think would make her more determined to have her own way and be more, well, pushy -- had the opposite effect. The reason, I think, is simply that the exercise made you more attractive to her instincts; you were a more satisfying flow point than the "dead" toy. It started feeling more pleasurable for her to give up the toy, giving in to your desire, basically. That behavior was then rewarded with the opportunity for a good chase. Then another. And another.

Anyway, that's how I see it,

LCK 

I agree completely, LCK.

She has actually become more "sociable" (remember, she was not socialized as a pup) with DH and I because (I believe) we are more attractive to her. She wants us more in her world, feels more part of the family and more secure that we are taking care of things. There's more trust. It's really quite amazing.

Lee Charles Kelley

How big is the dog?

 

She's a diddy little thing actually.  A little smaller than a collie, and approximately that build.

Lee Charles Kelley

Were you sitting or standing (I assume you were sitting)?

 

Yes.  I was sitting on the bench and she was sat on the ground close to me.  I put my hand round her and laid my hand lightly on her chest because I could see she was interested in the food and was taking extra precautions.  Laying my hand there was like a trigger.  The positioning wasn't precisely the same as the exercise, but I think enough of the other boxes were ticked.

Lee Charles Kelley

I don't know why you were doing the exercise (what behavioral problems you were working on),

As I stated in an earlier post (which you may have missed, its been a long thread!) there were two things I had in mind when I considered this exercise.  One was what *I* think of as general low-confidence.  The other was that she has never been one for playing fetch.  She CAN play and does too, if you give her all the right cues.  But it's never with enthusiasm and she will often "forget" what its about.  By contrast, I have a 13 year old terrier who will literally play fetch for HOURS with no cues and no reward other than the game itself. He is much more quietly confident, and in comparing them I thought maybe there was a link and the pushing might be worth a try.

Lee Charles Kelley

I tend to see a single event as insufficient data.

 

I completely understand.  However, given the results of that one event, I am sure you can see why I was not in a hurry to repeat it.  If she had a more serious issue that I wanted to tackle, if I had a pro on hand to give me eyes on, hands on help, then I would be less reluctant. As is, I really don't think it's worth the risk.

Lee Charles Kelley

If I were in your shoes, and my child had been injured due to a sudden new behavior that my dog had never exhibited before I'd definitely err on the side of caution, so to speak.

 

Precisely.

What I find odd is that since she adjusted to the baby, she seems to have understood the need for care and gentleness.  She is a young dog and full of energy, but around the little one she treads softly, lays her head on him carefully, and licks his knees. (??)  When he first started waving food at her, she actually got some of it and his little fingers were never at risk.  (Although we put a stop to it anyway).  For her to suddenly lose all caution like that was beyond strange.  The only other thing I can think of that would explain it aside from pushing is the  fact that we were visiting.... new house, new rules, a problem generalising?  Who knows....

Chuffy

The only other thing I can think of that would explain it aside from pushing is the  fact that we were visiting.... new house, new rules, a problem generalising?  Who knows....

That's an interesting question. If the dog learns to do this at home, do they need to be trained in it at other places? Sometimes, dogs don't generalize as we expect and I have certainly worked on training in other places and levels of distractions, which is a standard practice in most any training system, including one with corrections.

As for size of dogs, I am not sure how everyone's results would differ. Four has GSDs. Shadow is 26 inches to the shoulder and 65 pounds and he is a bit long, from the Lab influence. DW is 5' 51/2" and he can stand on hind legs and put his paws on her shoulders. I think his size is one of the reasons I trained away from him making overt contact such as pushing on or jumping on people. He would want to do it naturally to show affection or greeting but he can knock someone down, especially my goddaughter. He did knock DW done, once. Totally innocent and she had the wrong footing and she was laughing about it but still, I worked to have him not do that in the future.

 

ron2

Chuffy

The only other thing I can think of that would explain it aside from pushing is the  fact that we were visiting.... new house, new rules, a problem generalising?  Who knows....

That's an interesting question. If the dog learns to do this at home, do they need to be trained in it at other places?

 

Being in an unfamiliar environment might raise the dog's general level of nervousness, which might've been a factor.

And Ron, your question is still about learning a behavior, which is not the point of the exercise. As I've said (repeatedly) it's not about the physical act of pushing, it's about changing the underlying emotional dynamic. Most dogs don't become more "pushy" about food because of this exercise. (I've personally never seen it happen.)

It's the same thing with teaching the "Speak!" command to a dog who barks "non-stop" when he's left home alone. If you teach him to bark on command in a way that's similar to what the pushing exercise does -- which is to get the dog to learn that he can bark his way past his emotional barriers -- he'll bark less when left alone. That's because the SA/D barking is the result of fear or panic, and a confident dog won't have anything to bark about.

I hope this helps,

LCK 

 I have noticed she doesn't seem more pushy about food in general.  Or even just more pushy full stop.  The only difference I saw for good or bad was that she seemed to no longer respect my gently restraining her from food.

Lee Charles Kelley

It's the same thing with teaching the "Speak!" command to a dog who barks "non-stop" when he's left home alone. If you teach him to bark on command in a way that's similar to what the pushing exercise does -- which is to get the dog to learn that he can bark his way past his emotional barriers -- he'll bark less when left alone.

 

*raises hand*

Yeah I've seen this.  I have a dog that "speaks" on cue and he never barks when alone, he never even barks at delivery men or visitors.  He's just a quiet dog.  Till you TELL him to speak.**  Mind you, this can also be explained with learning theory, give something a cue and reward for responding to the cue, and then never cue.... It's not used as often as other techniques but it still works.

(**Except he has this cute aroooo rooo noise he uses to get attention (which works because it is so cute). )