Does your dog roleplay?

if you put the being chased ON CUE it doesn't affect the reliability of the dog's recall. He knows he'll only be chased if you issue the key word. He doesn't get to initiate it.

Dog_ma

 I had a dog with an extremely unreliable recall. Good in formal training, not worth a spit in exciting every day life.

This is very common, which is why on my website, under 7 Facts About Dogs, I point out:

"If you only train your dog while he's in a calm mood he won't know how to obey you when he's excited (like when he sees a squirrel or a skateboarder)!"

Dog_ma

when I ran after him, in desperation, he thought it was fun enough that he moderated his pace. I pathetically slogged after him 1 1/2 miles, feverish and in flip flops, until my husband arrived with the car. Escapee dog loved the car, and jumped right in.

If I had stopped after he showed no interest in running after me, who knows if he'd ever come back. All I know is that once I started in after him, he SLOWED DOWN to enjoy "the game." He bolted for the love of bolting, but being chased was much more fun than running free.  

This is an interesting case. But if you had played the chase-me game with him from the beginning, you could've easily turned the tables on both the bolting through the door behavior and his dis-inclination to chase you once he was free. The reason dogs bolt is that their prey drive is calling, luring them to find something to do with that natural energy. If one is in the habit of making oneself the main prey animal in a dog's life, the dog won't feel the need to bolt or run off to find that kind of satisfaction. All his predatory needs are satisfied right there at home.

LCK 

mudpuppy

if you put the being chased ON CUE it doesn't affect the reliability of the dog's recall. He knows he'll only be chased if you issue the key word. He doesn't get to initiate it.

Sorry, it's still not a good idea. I don't care how carefully you cue the being chased behavior, Unless you've specifically trained the recall under conditions when the dog is highly energized, and has a desire to run the other direction, you run the risk of not having control at a critical moment (like the ones I mentioned where the dogs were suddenly free to run straight into New York City traffic).

LCK 

Lee Charles Kelley

Unless you've specifically trained the recall under conditions when the dog is highly energized,

But a dog can be trained to recall in various situations of differing energy levels and excitement without the human necessarily being required to be "prey." Though Mudpuppy has suggested a similar approach at times, which is to run in the opposite direction and acting goofy. But other dogs can and are trained in extreme recall with marking and rewarding. And even Mudpuppy's version would likely include a reward at the end to strengthen the value of recalling. I think it might be overreaching to say that other styles of training do not provide a complete or valid extreme recall. I actually know one hunter that uses a remote collar on his 120 lb Yellow Lab and he gets his dog to recall and also to stay within a certain zone of accessibility and it did not involve being prey. Of course, I wouldn't use remote collars.

And I know I've read of a few people here who wouldn't even go to the dog park unless they could recall their dog, regardless of the scene.

I think, regardless of treats or human prey, the idea is for the recall to be more valuable to the dog than running in the other direction.

Lee Charles Kelley

Dog_ma

 I had a dog with an extremely unreliable recall. Good in formal training, not worth a spit in exciting every day life.

This is very common, which is why on my website, under 7 Facts About Dogs, I point out:

"If you only train your dog while he's in a calm mood he won't know how to obey you when he's excited (like when he sees a squirrel or a skateboarder)!"

Oh, we trained him under exciting conditions. But he was highly unbiddable, and had other special circumstances (read: mentally unbalanced). He did in fact have an intense prey drive, but there is no way in heck I'd have encouraged him to look at me as prey. Not that boy!

With my current puppy, we do a fair bit of him chasing me. Mostly because the little puppyhead likes to grab inappropriate items, and the easiest way to get them back is to initiate chase mommy. 

ron2

I think, regardless of treats or human prey, the idea is for the recall to be more valuable to the dog than running in the other direction.

Yeah, but if the dog thinks chasing you is the bee's knees and you play on that and make it even more rewarding than just the chase (chase followed by treats, and/or social bonding, cuddles and wrestles, tug maybe just as an example) then you put that whole process on cue, then in essence haven't you made the recall more valuable to the dog than running in the other direction? Or was that your point? 

I think getting the dog to chase you would work brilliantly on Jill, who is extremely motivated by play. At the moment, the best way of getting her to come back is to wave a rope toy above your head and call her name. Of course, she's a bit of a ditz and she has been known to see the rope toy and run 100 metres to dive straight into the lake and wait for the toy to arrive, regardless of the fact that the lake is 30 metres in the opposite direction to the one the person with the rope toy is facing. She's pretty good with the rope toy lure method, but if she's got the urge to run, she just picks up a toy and runs until she's run all the jitters out and everyone is pretty helpless to control the direction she runs in. And you can forget about it if there are kangaroos to chase.

Needless to say, Jill needs more training. I'm the kind of person that doesn't let my dog off if I'm less than 98% sure it'll come back when called, but my mother is more of a 60% person, or even a 40% person in some cirmcumstances.
 

corvus

then you put that whole process on cue, then in essence haven't you made the recall more valuable to the dog than running in the other direction? Or was that your point? 

That was my final point, yes. Although, as Dog Ma points out, from harsh personal, actual experience, there are some dogs that you don't want viewing you as prey and they are larger than a Lhasa Apso, for example.

corvus

she's a bit of a ditz and she has been known to see the rope toy and run 100 metres to dive straight into the lake and wait for the toy to arrive, regardless of the fact that the lake is 30 metres in the opposite direction to the one the person with the rope toy is facing.

It sounds like she recalled to the position that was most heavily rewarded with that toy. Just like how I accidently trained retrieve in the house to mean "bring it to the computer desk chair", even if I was in the kitchen. And that is not proof of Shadow's inability to understand. It is proof of my fallibility in the training process.

Lee Charles Kelley

mudpuppy

if you put the being chased ON CUE it doesn't affect the reliability of the dog's recall. He knows he'll only be chased if you issue the key word. He doesn't get to initiate it.

 

Sorry, it's still not a good idea. I don't care how carefully you cue the being chased behavior, Unless you've specifically trained the recall under conditions when the dog is highly energized, and has a desire to run the other direction, you run the risk of not having control at a critical moment (like the ones I mentioned where the dogs were suddenly free to run straight into New York City traffic).

LCK 

Well, sorry, but I don't completely agree.  Dogs are capable, through proper training, of understanding that a behavior they do on cue is not welcome off cue, and it also gives you the opportunity to train a "shut off" behavior as well.    Granted, I would not suggest that people chase their dogs if they aren't capable of applying this concept.  However, my dogs get chased, and chase me back, but their recalls are dead on reliable.  The reason is that I taught the recall right from square one (in early puppyhood, or as soon as the dog was acquired), and did not chase my dogs as puppies, or as new adoptees, before they had a fluent recall.

Also, I would agree it's not a good idea to chase puppies when they have objects in their mouths.  They'll keep your socks when they steal them, instead of giving them back nicely when you teach "trade" first. 

ron2

It sounds like she recalled to the position that was most heavily rewarded with that toy. Just like how I accidently trained retrieve in the house to mean "bring it to the computer desk chair", even if I was in the kitchen. And that is not proof of Shadow's inability to understand. It is proof of my fallibility in the training process.

 

Yes, that's true. Ironically, though, the lake Jill dives into when she sees the rope toy is not the one she habitually plays fetch in. In fact, the rope toy generally never leaves the yard, and fetch in the lake only occurs in a different lake with a tennis ball, so perhaps I'm being unjust in calling her a ditz (although she really is in everyday life!). Somehow she generalised on her own that rope toy means fetch, fetch is fun in the lake, and there's a lake right there, so let's dive in and play lake fetch. To give her credit, sometimes when she sees the rope toy she runs back to the yard, where the rope toy is always most rewarding. She doesn't think much when she sees a rope toy. She just seems to randomly run to the first place she sees where fetch occurs, I guess. 

corvus

What do people think of this? Do people see their own dogs engaging in roleplay of some sort, and how does their body language differ from playing a role and living it for real?

This is something that remains in dogs, and to a lesser extent in wild canids.  Puppy games.  When canids are puppies they play games that teach them how to hunt.  Sometimes in that game they are the hunter, sometimes the hunted.  

Running away from the "big scary predator" games are just a hold over from that.