Dog Community

Question about English Mastiff Aggression

Posted : 9/25/2006 2:54:52 PM

My cousin belongs to another site and I'm more than a little irritated with the advice she's been given and comments mailed to her so I thought I'd post here in hopes to have more options to give her.

She has two English Mastiffs (boy and girl). Yesterday, in the early morning hours while everyone was asleep, the Chloe snapped and mangled their dachsund, Duke. Just to give a little background... she's 3 years old from Petland (of course, none of us knew beforehand how bad that was) and lately has been showing signs of aggression when it's least expected. She snipped a neighbor's child a few weeks ago leaving a red mark... her other boy dog was laying in the floor asleep and she jumped off the couch and started on him... she snipped at Duke also but didn't hurt him.

Duke was older (around 12 years old - he has been with them the whole 12 years) and the emergency vet said his jaw was broken, several teeth embedded, some superficial wounds on his body and lost a lot of blood. After more testing they found that he had an enlarged heart and cushings disease. My cousin and her husband did not want to put him thru more pain than he'd already experienced and had to make the dreadful decision to put him to sleep. We're all heartbroken... for losing Duke and what he had to go thru in his last hours. Upset because Chloe has become unpredictable. Worried that Chloe might act out toward others. Hubby was furious saying he wanted her put to sleep because they have two smaller children in the house and other children/adults running in and out... what if she 'attacked' them? They wouldn't be able to live with it. That's not going to happen as they both love Chloe dearly... he was just so angry and hurt over the whole thing.

It's been suggested that Chloe has a thyroid problem and to have the vet run some tests. Others have said Mastiffs are never aggressive. They think Duke was the problem, because he was sick that Chloe knew it and attacked. Some have even said she didn't 'know' it was Chloe since she didn't see it (even tho we all KNOW our different dog's barks or woofs or growls) and she shouldn't be blamed for what happened. I'm just looking for any sane advice that someone can give... something she can do to ease their minds.

Thanks!

Susan Robertson

Posted : 9/25/2006 3:30:31 PM

Not really knowing much background of how the EM's were socialized, raised or how old she was when purchased from Petland is going to be part of the issue.

OEM's reach full maturity, physically around 3-4 yrs. of age. Sometimes people see a change in protectiveness at that point. They are guard dogs, but should be bred for soundness. I know you realize that the Petland situation leaves a huge blank in their heritage, genetic soundness or health testing. Another huge part of the puzzle.

I don't think anybody can make a true statemtent that ANY breed of dog is "never aggressive". Any dog can be aggressive if provoked, sick, etc. But, if an OEM is aggressive, the damage is tenfold due to their size. I too would be concerned for small children in the house and surely they should always be supervised around the OEM's while they are being health checked for any underlying medical issues.

OEM's can have hip dysplasia, arthritis, liver problems, anything that may cause pain and a quick change in temperament. The problem with an OEM and an unpredictable temperament is that it is scary if they "snap" and obviously your cousin has expressed his concerns and doesn't want anyone hurt. That being said, I'd start with the vet check and then careful supervision. It may never happen again, or this could be the start of something that she is just getting in to. Has she always shown signs of being a bit more protective of family/property?? In my experience with OEM's, it can intensify as they age. But, they still should never be aloof or unpredictable in nature. Not normal to this dog, but it can happen.

I am sorry about Duke and that this happened. OEM"s are really wonderful dogs and I hope this doesn't scare your cousin away from them. Breeder research is paramount for these guys since having a giant guard dog in your house can be formidable to say the least![

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Xerxes

Posted : 9/25/2006 3:41:42 PM

I would think that any sort of disease or medical condition could cause Chloe to become a bit aggressive. I would have a thorough blood panel performed just in case, as well as have her checked for other signs of pain indicators.

It is not fair to say that any dog is non aggressive. What scares me into thinking it's medical is that she's becoming dog-aggressive and human aggressive.

Get the medical panel done then use those results to make an informed decision about her.

spiritdogs

Posted : 9/25/2006 7:18:50 PM

Also, in answer to the question about whether there is aggressive behavior when one dog senses another is sick, the answer is that it does happen.
Another possibility is that they never quite ironed out any status issues, and when Duke weakened, she took advantage.
If she is snapping at children and leaving marks, plus she did significant damage to a dog, then certainly you would want to have a thorough evaluation, both by a veterinarian and a behaviorist. Normally, one would not assume that aggression toward dogs would lead to aggression toward humans, but leaving marks is not representative of perfect bite inhibition either...so there is at least a modicum of concern.

luvmyswissy

Posted : 9/25/2006 8:30:27 PM

I have a giant breed as well and know how scary it is when you find your dog has shown aggression. You have received great advise I will only add that this dog can not be allowed with children unsupervised and for now, management of this dog is key. Implementing NILIF methods helped amensely in positioning our dog within our family.

Susan Robertson

Posted : 9/26/2006 7:27:38 AM

I agree with using NILIF in your house with 2 giant dogs. Kato does very well with this and now I don't even have to say "wait" at the door or "wait" before I put his food down. He knows he must do this before he's rewarded. He used to barrel out the door and about knock me on my butt, but not anymore. He will sit on command and then wait until I tell him it's okay to come out. He learned very quickly, and he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer!

mudpuppy

Posted : 9/26/2006 8:11:18 AM

dog aggression and even human aggression in mastiffs is not uncommon-- they aren't all naturally sweet super-tolerant cuddle bugs like so many people seem to think. They were bred to fight in wars and in gladiator pits. Keep that in mind. Since these are guard dogs, they are naturally suspicious of strangers and if you aren't very careful in choosing your breeder and socializing and training the dog it's not uncommon to end up with a dog who is overly suspicious of people and thus bites them, or is overly fearful of people and thus bites them.
I have a friend who has bunch of them and they can be quite scary when their "guard instinct" kicks in.

bragg1120

Posted : 9/26/2006 10:09:54 AM

Thanks to all of you guys that responded... I know my cousin appreciates it as much as I do!

She will be making an appointment with the vet (if she hasn't already). I'll tell her about the medical panel. It was mentioned about signs of pain indicators... I did forget to mention that around last spring/summer, she had a broken leg. Now, from what my cousin says, even when she was in pain, she didn't act out as she has been lately. Maybe she's having recurring pain?

I knew some dogs would sniff/lick other animals or even people if they thought something was wrong or they were sick... I didn't know they'd possibly take advantage of the situation as in this case. I've also never heard of NILIF (looking it up now tho) so I'll mention that to her as well. Heck, this might be a lesson for our whole family!

It was so frustrating to hear what had been said to her. They're already having such a difficult time after the loss of Duke and the questions about Chloe... it frustrates me that they were quick with blame or a comment like 'these dogs aren't aggressive'. Thank you guys soooo much!!! I'm passing this along and hopefully, getting her on this board.

Susan Robertson

Posted : 9/26/2006 3:33:25 PM

Since these are guard dogs, they are naturally suspicious of strangers and if you aren't very careful in choosing your breeder and socializing and training the dog it's not uncommon to end up with a dog who is overly suspicious of people and thus bites them, or is overly fearful of people and thus bites them.

I think this is true of any breed. Mastiffs, meaning English Mastiffs don't have a high bite reputation. If all of the above is followed, they are very docile, sound animals. Many other breeds that aren't even "known" for guarding or thought of as aggressive have more instances of biting. Aren't Labs and Cockers at the top of the bite list?

Now, other Mastiffs, Neos, Dogge De Bordeaux's, Cane Corso, Tibetans, etc....are more known for guard instincts and can be much more aloof and suspicious. The English Mastiff should not be aloof and unstable. Generally speaking, the OEM makes a better family pet with kids than the other varieties above. They are not as recommended for first time dog owners and should always be owned by a strong leader and someone who can handle that power.

mudpuppy

Posted : 9/27/2006 7:57:07 AM

a well-bred english mastiff, yes. Not the puppy-mill pet store variety. I'd suggest your friends seek professional help ASAP. A poorly bred mastiff exhibiting aggression is not something to fool around with.

Susan Robertson

Posted : 9/27/2006 8:35:35 AM

A poorly bred mastiff exhibiting aggression is not something to fool around with.

I agree whole heartedly.

Richard Dragin

Posted : 10/2/2006 9:55:52 AM

I would like to emphasize what Spiritdogs said. First a vet check-up and than a professional behaviorist. The dogs and especially the owners don't need an obedience class but someone who truly understands behavior and can train the owners to work out the problem. There are many methods but they will all center on leadership.

The whole issue of breeding and breed is secondary. Dogs are dogs first and specific traits of a breed don't really matter to your cousin right now. The only trait that matters is these are large strong dogs so the results of this problem can be a lot worse than if they were Chihuahuas.