It's a Snap - Bite Thresholds

Considering that a dogs mouth can move a whole lot faster than my hand (or other body part) I don't think luck is involved at all.  I'll use what I've seen in Sheba as an example.  She would air snap at people....primarily obnoxious little girls...as they left.  Never made contact but scared the stuff out of them.  With the DRUNK that she did bite I am positive that she inhibited her bite.  She has a strong jaw but she didn't break the skin....just bruised the heck out of the mennace.  Had she wanted to, she could have done considerably more damage.  But she bit him in defense of me after he staggered into me and knocked me down.  She was afraid, she was angry, she was upset, but she STILL inhibited her bite.  And the police, when I had to call them on a different matter with the drunk, when I told them WHY he was so out of control and angry, told me that had they been called when she bit him, they would NOT have written a report because she had acted in defense of me.
 
With a reactive dog like Sheba, clearly you have to prevent her from feeling threatened to the point of reacting.  And even with a "normal" dog, I'm thinking that the way to prevent the snap in the first place is to NOT back them into a corner, and not make them feel threatened.  I can't see any of my dogs even snapping, with the possible exception of Sheba still, but I also wouldn't want them put in the position of feeling the need to defend themselves from a threat.

If a dog snaps he means to snap in my opinion.  I also believe that as a human being, the dog snapped because you misunderstood everything he/she had been communicating to you (as plainly as possible) prior to that.  Now  the obviousness of those pre snap warnings will vary if they have been punished (punished behavior disappears) which means the snap may eventually appear to occur out of thin air. 
 
In most cases I do not believe that,,,actually I believe most humans are clueless about intrepting dog behavior and (although improving)I am still one of those....Working hard to improve my ability to communicate in this new language.

Funny you should mention the protective aspect.  Maska is the most mellow dog on the planet - loves everybody, lets little preschool kids pull his ears and tug his tail, sets his big muzzle down on an elder's lap as long as the person will keep patting.  Goes from person to person at play group getting his backside massaged. An all around good guy with no history of any aggression.  Yet, one day, someone reached into my car suddenly, and he leapt up and air snapped.  He does protect me from coyotes, and I'm sure he just perceived that quick motion toward me as a threat.

Being one of the people that has actually been bitten by their dogs....
 
Gaia has had reactivity issues and general aggression issues since I've had her.  I do not know exactly what kind of an environment she came from, but I do know that SOMETHING happened to her to turn her this way.  I personally think she was used to fighting and enjoyed it, and was pretty good at it.  On two occasions I have been bitten by her, neither broke the skin nor left bruises. 
 
The first time she bit was during a skirmish between the "alpha" female of the park and Gaia.  They began to bark fight and got up on their hind legs.  I grabbed Gaia's collar and she turned with that long neck and bit me six or seven times, each bite a bit weaker than the last one.  The second time I had interupted her correcting Xerxes in what I perceived was an extraordinarily harsh manner.  I got the same.
 
I actually PM'd Anne about this one.  And I began a strict NILIF and so on...
 
Now to answer the question: I think she meant to bite, but that she didn't mean to bite me.  Gaia is better now about giving more warning to Xerxes and to other dogs.  But since she was "debarked" (though not a complete success) her ability to warn is limited.  Given the right circumstances, Gaia would have no qualms about biting a human or another dog.
 
Xerxes shows signs of alpha wannabe aggression, but never any human aggression.  In fact he's only mildly curious about people. (Typical of the breed.)  He'd rather come up to you and sniff you while you ignore him than for you to approach him.  He would not bite, IMO, a human, and probably wouldn't air-snap either.  He'd rather run away, staying just out of reach.

Most times a snap is just a warning I think and if the dog does connect then it is an accident on the dog's part.  I would go further and say that most bites are also a warning, albeit a much stronger one.  A dog is armed with some serious weaponry and could do untold damage..... a great many are physically capable of maiming or killing a person, but in the vast majority of cases they hold back from this.

I'm a very firm believer that dogs are exceptionally good at putting their bodies exactly where they mean to put them. In terms of a bite, I'd be more inclined to believe that a dog that snapped, missed, than that a dog that actually made contact, did it on accident. Does that make sense? A lot depends on the history of course and the precise nature of the incident. But I deal with a breed with lightening reflexes and the ability to air snap at a ewe hurtling through the air at top speed (versus actually biting, which would really send her into orbit rather than simply making her stop and think). So there's that to consider, too. I mostly consider it when people make excuses and say, "Oh, I don't think the dog meant to do that." In a Border Collie's eyes, especially the ones that tend to be reactive, I move in slow motion like those Asian martial arts fight scenes - the dog has plenty of time to do exactly what he wants to me.

Balancing this is the fact that Border Collie bites tend to be less serious in general. They don't usually bite and shake, or bite and grip, or bite and twist. If you stand still, 99% of the time you won't be hurt at all by even the most serious BC biting. Most bad bites I've seen have been "exit wounds" caused when the victim drew back, flailed and caused a second defensive bite, or got a particularly vulnerable part (face or fingers) in the way of retreat.

To answer the question directly, I deal with dogs that have little to no bite threshold, by nature. We need that part and any inhibition has to be put in them through training and good breeding for dogs that naturally pick up on what is appropriate and what is undesireable. What that means in practical terms is that I if have a dog that has a reactive history, I don't have much wiggle room for striking a balance between safety and ensuring that the dog is not further damaged by heavy-handed management.

I believe every dog will bite given the right circumstances.  I also think some are more naturally protective than others.

Do you believe that every dog will bite given the right set of circumstances, even the dog that normally chooses flight?

 
good question and I _think_ the answer is yes.  However, a rescue basenji (lived her entire 2-4 year life in a tiny cage;  terrified of everything she'd never seen which was her crate and other basenjis; malnurioushed, etc)  taught me that it's not just fight versus flight.  There is a third option - freeze.  Her first choice was ALWAYS flight, but if that option were taken away she'd just sort of freeze and vacate.  I never saw her attempt to "fight" a human. 

Good point about the "freeze", but I think that a dog that freezes, pressed too hard, may escalate to the bite.  I think it's just that some dogs really need a lot of pressure to make that jump.
Becca, you say that most BC bites are not serious - can you give me an assessment generally of the bites that you see Aussies commit?  Just interested in your perspective on that)

Ian Dunbar has devised a "Bite Scale" that addresses this issue quite nicely. He defines an air-snap as a Level 1 bite - where a snap is made but there is no contact with skin. When discussing aggression, air-snaps are usually included in that realm as well, defining a dog with very good control of their mouths.

I too am a very firm believer that dogs have exceptional capabilities in controlling their mouths, how they use them, and how hard they use them. They learn this from puppyhood in the litter and use it throughout their lives with other dogs and also people. Of course how a grown dog uses its mouth will depend on what it learned in using its mouth as an adult. By this I mean for everyday circumstances dogs learn what appropriate mouthing levels are, and what pressure from the mouth is acceptable. And of course they learn this differently with humans than with dogs, as they quite clearly use their mouths softer with humans (if taught so) than with other dogs.

If a dog wanted to bite you out of aggression, it would bite you. I have seen some dogs that have accidentally bit in, say, a game of tug-o-war where the rules have not been outlined properly to the dog and it simply grabs your hand instead of the toy, but when discussing overt air-snapping as a means of aggression I feel they have EXTREMELY good control over their mouths.

And of course I also believe that just about any dog most certainly will bite under the right (or wrong) circumstances! Because a dog's only (and last) means of physical defence is it's mouth, it's only natural that if pushed to the limit a dog will use its mouth. It's the limit that people need to worry about, as well as whether or not the dog has good bite inhibition, or if the dog learned little to no B.I. as a pup and as a result has a quite hard mouth. An air-snap is a good thing in terms of aggression. You can work SO much easier with an air-snap than with a dog that bites without apparent warning, or a dog who has learned that his/her warnings aren't heeded, so he therefore skips right to bite instead of the other behavioural signals that would have preceeded a bite.

Although ironically we did have one Cairn Terrier (a puppy mill special), Gizmo R.I.P (passed away naturally at 12 years old in our home), who would not bite to save his soul. Not even when he was being savagely attacked by another dog would he fight back, he literally just stood there and accepted what was coming to him. He was the only dog I've met thus far that would never fight back, would literally, not harm a soul, or at least he hadn't been pushed to his bite threshold (although if throat-puncturing wounds and head-shaking attacks don't do it, not much would have). But he's an exception to the rule really. I do think that almost any dog would bite if enough stimuli breached the dog's threshold and put it over the edge.

Kim MacMillan

Yup, I'm with everyone who says a dog is very good at placing his mouth where he wants to place it and biting as hard or soft as he means to bite.  I believe (this has not been proven, just my belief) that a dog is as dextrous in this respect with his jaws and teeth as we humans are with our hands. 
 
I can catch a tennis ball without barely even thinking of it 9 times out of 10.  But I still drop the b****r sometimes.  And dogs, being no more perfect than humans (IMO... goes back to the "whole dog" thread) also misjudge sometimes and that that judgement can be affected by excitement, fear or external factors - such as the one being "bitten" moving in an unexpected way so that the "delivery" is mucked up and what was intended as a snap ends as a nip or bite.  (Example... playing with the dog with a toy, dog is getting overexcited, grabs for the toy but due to a last minute move on the human's part teeth connect.) 
 
And as humans, some people are far better at ball-catching than others.  (In fact, 9 times out of 10 is probably a bit generous for me, I am a girl after all!)  In the same way, I do believe some dogs are more skilled at judging where to place their mouths and how hard.  Teaching good manners and bite inhibition as a puppy helps, but some of it will just be in the raw potential of the dog (IMO). No matter how much practise I have, I will still never be the worlds greatest ball catcher.  My perception of space and shape is generally very poor.  I am also crap at parking and a hopeless darts player. 
 
Working in a vets, I saw a few dogs come in that had been in "fights", owner distraught, wants to be sure Pooky isnt badly hurt by the other dog.... a few mild punctures around head/face, dog shaken but otherwise OK.  My understanding is that if the dog wanted to seriously hurt Pooky, the results wouldn't bear thinking about, fights are usually little more than posturing and bluffing, a warning snap to the face is common and occasionally the teeth connect.... there is a good chance such wounds are probably accidental.  That's just my take on it.