Labels and Dogs

I have a little different view, but only because of where I work. (vet clinic)  I like to label dogs when I am at work only because it helps me to know what to expect when I enter an exam room.  I am very gratefull to know that a dog is aggressive, or fearfull as I can better interact with the dog if I have some insight into their normal behavior at the clinic.  We have one dog in particular that is claustrophobic, if he was not sufficiently labeled, once the exam room door was closed, he would tear the door down to get out.  Even with his owner trying to pull him away.  I do believe that dogs can shed these labels and become well adjusted, if their owner is truly committed to helping the process along.

ORIGINAL: BEVOLASVEGAS

I have a little different view, but only because of where I work. (vet clinic)  I like to label dogs when I am at work only because it helps me to know what to expect when I enter an exam room.  I am very gratefull to know that a dog is aggressive, or fearfull as I can better interact with the dog if I have some insight into their normal behavior at the clinic.  We have one dog in particular that is claustrophobic, if he was not sufficiently labeled, once the exam room door was closed, he would tear the door down to get out.  Even with his owner trying to pull him away.  I do believe that dogs can shed these labels and become well adjusted, if their owner is truly committed to helping the process along.

I get what you mean, but let me throw this out to you.  What if, instead of pasting a label that says "aggressive", we labeled the crate "may bite when approached", or some other description of what the dog actually does, not who he is?  I know that might be a problem to do in your clinical situation, but when we talk about dogs and how they behave, it's important to remember that some dogs only aggress in one situation, not all.  So, it's unfair to classify them totally by that one behavior.  For example, I used to groom.  Some dogs do not like to be groomed - we know who they are, and might consider them aggressive, or a PITA.  But, at home, if you asked the owner, they would say that little Muffy is the best dog in the world - their heart dog.  Some of them would even euthanize their dogs if they heard that the groomer was bitten at the shop that week.  (Happened to a friend of mine - now she just tells the owner "he was a little testy this week" and maybe suggests a vet visit if it's new behavior.)
The more I learn about dogs, the more I like to label behavior, not generalize.  And, the more I learn about humans, the better I feel about that decision. JMHO

The more I learn about dogs, the more I like to label behavior, not generalize. And, the more I learn about humans, the better I feel about that decision. JMHO

 
What a great statement, and one I agree with 100%.
 

"No Bad Dogs" only bad behaviors? And since behaviors can be modified through various techniques-all dogs have the ability to be "good?"

90% true I think. Unfortunately we have to say, in addition to bad (I prefer the term inappropriate lol) behaviors, there are genetic tendencies that are incompatible with human companionship. Ie, there ARE dogs who are messed up in the head, and that so badly that life with humans comprises suffering and a low quality of life and safety level for the dog. Someday perhaps we'll have the medical ability to help these dogs but it's not quite there yet. []

These dogs are so rare, though, I make absolutely no assumptions, ever.

I agree that it's far more useful to me as a trainer and handler, to say, "This dog does X" rather than something as vague and variable as "he's aggressive" or even "she's fear aggressive." I don't mess around with rescues with a history, I don't even try to explain to a vet or groomer - I simply say, "Use a muzzle." They don't care why - all of them appreciate the honesty. I'll go on to qualify it once the dog is restrained "She's a little nervy," or "It's just a precaution" or, "He reached for me once when I was messing with his feet." If the dog has to be boarded for some medical reason, I will make sure they write exactly how to handle the dog and I'll go look at the card on the kennel.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Dominant. Submissive.  Fearful.  Shy.  Aggressive.  Phobic.  Anxious. We humans have placed a lot of labels on dogs.  Are we really helping dogs by doing this, or is it really as Karen Pryor suggests?  She says that behavior is only behavior, and if we concentrate on shaping or modifying a dog's behavior, that is enough. 

Don't agree with Karen on this one.

Training and the social and behavioral areas require different approaches. IMO

I see aggression, insecurity, or confussion as symptoms of frustration and instability. To deal with a symptom, you must first find the cause.

Barring medical, physical, and genetics causes, I've found the two primary causes:

Frustration can be caused by a lack of exercise and mental challenge.

Instability can be caused by a dog not knowing his place within his social group, lack of socialization, and how the owner is interacting with the dog.

Without addressing the problem at it's source first, all you may be doing is shaping a symptom to get a behavior. This is an attempt to "train" a dog out of frustration and instability, which should be addressed at the source - how the owner is interacting with their dog and whether or not the owner is providing the appropriate amount of exercise and mental stimulation.

Bottom line...cause = owner.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

So, for the shy dog, if we can get him to approach a scary object, and another, and another, by means of operant conditioning, aren't we gradually building his confidence in the sense that the 100 good experiences he has will eventually outweigh the 1 bad? 

My dog was truely afraid of water when I got her. Mud puddles, the beach, the hose, even the sound of water running in the shower or in the washing machine.

So, I should have used conditioning methods one at a time with each of these areas only to have her react to a trickle of water in a drain when I'm visiting away from home?

Or should I deal with it by her learning to trust me so that she feels safe in my presence and will walk through anything with me?

By the way, she really enjoys a good swim at the beach these days (Well, in the summer when it's not freezing!)

I sent a client who's dog suffered from separation anxiety to a trainer who uses "Positive Only" conditioning methods. The client was the main cause of the dog's problem. But this case also involved a high-strung dog who was taken everywhere with the owner from the time it was a puppy.

I did not think this owner would change how she interacted with the dog, but she would be able to implement training methods. She is a horse trainer. Horses were animals, but she was treating her dog like a person. I thought we'd see if the dog trainer could do some good.

End result was a dog who got better in her crate only. The minute the dog was left in the car, all of the behaviors were still there.

The client is now desperate because $400 later, her dog cannot be left in her car or anywhere else besides her crate without having an "episode" and is now growling at her kid (the dog just turned two). The trainer has done all she could for the dog and she did help the dog's seperation anxiety while being crated, but there is no more that she feels she can do. This trainer is very good at training and is involved with agility. A very nice lady who I will continue to send people to for "training".

The client is now willing to change her interactions with her dog, establish leadership, and get out for daily walks...just what I like to hear. []

I'm not sure I agree 100% that one should only address the behavior and not worry about the whys.
 
Consider separation anxiety. If you don't identify it for what it is and just try to address each individual behavioral component-- potty problems, destructiveness, barking-- you will get nowhere. Separation anxiety is a mental illness and requires a multi-disciplinary approach -- you can't just "address the behaviors".
 
Consider "barking too much". Tells you nothing. The dog may be barking out of boredom, out of terror, as a watchdog behavior, or is having too much fun. Each cause requires a different re-training approach. Digging holes-- is the dog bored? hot? hunting for moles?

I agree, to a certain extent, with the idea of focussing solely on behaviour, and less on the labels and the possible thought processes behind that behaviour. I think people are drawn to labels/thoughts/emotions because it makes it easier for us to understand what's going on, although it can also make dealing with the problem more difficult.
 
I think though, asking why a dog is doing a certain behaviour is important- what is reinforcing the dog's behaviour? what objects or events in the environment are triggering it?

When analysing behaviour, it isn't the behaviour alone that needs to be examined, but also the antecedents and the consequences- without changing those, any change in behaviour is also unlikely.

Yes, labels are still useless in terms of dealing with things like seperation anxiety and boredom barking. Partly because these terms are themselves widely inclusive, and partly because, as Vinia said, triggers and reinforcers are much more relevant in re-shaping behavior.

For instance, Eddie is on the edge of seperation anxiety. OK, that's nice to say that, but can you advise me on what to do now, given that lone piece of information? No, because I still have to address the behavior and once I've done that, the "label" will be irrelevant. One thing is that I feel very strongly in the philosophy that "problems" are for the most part merely facets of the learning process.

Eddie has started periodically "yarking" and even howling at about the time he'd normally go out. This is wonderful! It means he is responding to the routine and building expectations. If I don't address this, it will become an annoying habit and probably escalate to full-blown SA. Because we are not in an active training phase yet we'll simply sidestep the issue for now by speeding up his walk schedule still more. I started this yesterday and the yarking is less intense. I expect we'll have a "burst" tomorrow sometime, and then he'll be done with that.

At no time do I say, "He's having seperation anxiety, therefore I will . . ." I do discuss with people, the range of things that can be done with dogs that exibit inappropriate behaviors, that fall within certain categories. I enjoy it as an intellectual exercise. In this type of communication, on a discussion forum, it's also tempting to do the same - your dog has "Blank" and this is what you do. It can be comforting to a person who is struggling with something as alien as some of the things dogs do as a matter of course. []

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I get what you mean, but let me throw this out to you.  What if, instead of pasting a label that says "aggressive", we labeled the crate "may bite when approached", or some other description of what the dog actually does, not who he is?  I know that might be a problem to do in your clinical situation, but when we talk about dogs and how they behave, it's important to remember that some dogs only aggress in one situation, not all.  So, it's unfair to classify them totally by that one behavior. 

 
 
I actually agree with you there & we actually do label the kennels with the behavior that is a problem, snappy when handling feet,  may bite with approach, ect.  But we have some dogs that come in that are truly aggressive, as in they will bite and if they do bite you it's with very bad intentions.  Those dogs are usually accompanied by their owners throughout the visit if at all possible.