Dog Community

crying at night...

Posted : 10/24/2006 10:26:01 AM

I posted this in response to another note but thought it might get lost so am re-posting as new. Any thoughts on the below issue would be much appreciated!

I'm having a crate issue that I'm not sure how to handle. We've had Josie about 2 months (15 lb poodle mix), and when we rescued her she wasn't housebroken (but she's about 20 months old so no longer a puppy, with puppy bathroom issues). We started crating her at night right away, and the third night we had her, she wet her crate. This was after crying for a few minutes, and I was doing my best to be a good crate-trainer, so I didn't let her out when she cried (didn't want to reward the crying). I felt awful for her, and stupid. Fast forward to now -- she has a new crate (the old one was more of a plastic travel kennel which was too dark and small), and we feed her in there, give her treats, all the positive association things. She still doesn't "love it" the way I've heard some dogs do -- she doesn't go in during the day, for instance, on her own accord, unless she's looking for a treat. The problem we're having is that she cries several times a night, and we can't tell if she really has to go or not. I'm so sensitive to the accident from early on that when she cries, we take her out. She always pees, but I'm not convinced that means she HAS to pee or is just going b/c she's out. What I don't know is if she SHOULD be able to go all night without going out, and if we're doing a bad thing by letting her out to pee when she cries. My husband says to just let her stay in there and if she pees, so be it, but I think that would just put us back to square one with the training / housebreaking. On the other hand, rewarding her by letting her out when she cries is breaking Rule #1 of crate training. We don't mind getting up once a night, but twice is too much (we're getting exhausted!), and she HAS had nights where she's slept through until morning with no problem so I don't think it's a physical necessity for her to go every 4 hours. Thoughts / suggestions from those older (or younger) and wiser?

Shohin

Posted : 10/24/2006 12:54:46 PM

I can't really say for sure on how to handle this situation, but I can offer my experiences.

Winston is a puppy . . . coming up on 5 months. He can hold it all night no problem. He did wet his crate a few times the first couple weeks, but has since learned that if he doesn't want to lay in his own pee, he'd better hold it. We have not had an accident in the crate in over two months (we've only had him for 3).

Have you looked into the possibility of a urinary tract infection? That may be an issue here with your dog. Something to think about and read up on anyway.

jerrod

Posted : 10/24/2006 6:06:47 PM

I can't really offer much either because I don't even have my pup home yet but I do plan on crate training him. I think I know of a way to compromise. I know that most major pet stores sell pads that will soak up any moisture but they're extremely expensive. Instead of spending your money on the expensive pads try your local pharmacy and asked them if they have Chuck's pads (there's other names for them but your pharmacist should know what you're talking about) they do the exact same thing except they're designed to soak up as much as a full grown man's bladder will hold. Unfortunately I'm in a wheelchair and I know firsthand they work very well [sm=blush.gif].
I hope this helps you out.
Semper Fi

Sherith Pankratz

Posted : 10/25/2006 6:02:11 AM

thanks for the thoughts. i have decided to try a few things. one is that i'm going to have her wait a bit longer between trips outside during the day to see if she can handle it. i think she can (which is why i don't think she's got a UTI -- although i'm glad you mentioned it b/c i'm going to be aware of that possibility and the symptoms). i take her out every 4 hours or so for a short walk, mostly for the exercise, but of course she always pees when we're out there. but that doesn't mean she HAS to go -- just that she's going 'cause she can. i also think she may be wanting the attention she gets when we take her out, even if it's just for a few minutes. as a rescue dog she's clingy and needy and worried we're going to abandon her -- maybe she just wants reassurance that we're still there in the middle of the night!

relatedly, i'm also going to try crating her during the day when i'm here (which i don't normally do). i'll put her crate right next to me while i'm working, so she can see that "crate" doesn't necessarily equal "left alone." i suppose if worse comes to worse we'll have to just let her cry in the middle of the night and see what happens, and in that case i may go buy one of those pads you recommended (thanks akita) in the event that she does pee.

i feel better knowing that so many dogs -- puppies, even! -- can hold it for 8-10 hours. she should be able to get through the night with no problem. so, barring any physical problem, it's a matter of training. thanks again for the advice!

Sherith Pankratz

Posted : 10/25/2006 6:02:57 AM

ps -- what kind of puppy are you getting, akita?

jerrod

Posted : 10/25/2006 8:22:55 PM

Hi Josephine, I'm actually getting an Akita puppy. At the time I subscribed to the forum I hadn't figured out what I was going to name him so I just used Akita. Now that I know I'm going to name him Mako I probably will change my screen name.

spiritdogs

Posted : 10/25/2006 9:45:26 PM

Many pups have to have bathroom trips at night when they are very young. If they are asleep, they have a mechanism that keeps them from having to go, but if they awaken, chances are that they need to go potty.
The secret is to get up and get them right outside, reward them quietly for pottying outdoors, but then take them back to their crate without a lot of fuss, say goodnight, shut out the light and ignore them. They soon learn that there will be no play, no attention, no shenanigans at night. Just potty and back to bed. [

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This may happen a couple of times a night, but it gets better as they are able to hold it longer.

Shohin

Posted : 10/25/2006 10:15:04 PM

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Many pups have to have bathroom trips at night when they are very young. If they are asleep, they have a mechanism that keeps them from having to go, but if they awaken, chances are that they need to go potty.
The secret is to get up and get them right outside, reward them quietly for pottying outdoors, but then take them back to their crate without a lot of fuss, say goodnight, shut out the light and ignore them. They soon learn that there will be no play, no attention, no shenanigans at night. Just potty and back to bed. []
This may happen a couple of times a night, but it gets better as they are able to hold it longer.

I personally have to disagree with the above statement (nothing personal intended). If the dog wakes up and can't "turn off" the pee and just goes, how are you going to know to get up and let the dog out? And if the dog whines because its now awake and has to go potty, chances are that the dog will have already gone by the time you get there. Even more problematic would be you waking the dog up to go to the bathroom.

Personally, I see no problem with letting the dog wet the bedding in its crate. Yes, it is uncomfortable . . . which IMO is the point, and you may be washing blankets every day for a while, but you want the dog to learn to hold it, even if it wakes up in the middle of the night. To the best of my understanding, this is the basic premise behind crate training and is why crate training "works" . . .

spiritdogs

Posted : 10/25/2006 11:30:23 PM

(Caution - sarcasm ahead.) I guess that's why it's so easy to housebreak pet store puppies.

If you let a pup pee in its crate, you risk having the pup do that forever. The reason crate training works is that pups have a natural aversion to peeing where they sleep. And, so long as the crate is not too big, they can't "get away" from the soiling, so they try to "hold it". The problem is that once awake, they can't hold it for long, hence the need to get them out quickly. The dam teaches them at a very young age to pee away from the "den". With pet store pups, they may not have been with their dam at this critical time, then they arrive at a pet store where, lo and behold, they are allowed to pee in the crates. I would discourage any soiling of the crate by taking the pup out.

Sherith Pankratz

Posted : 10/26/2006 5:01:05 AM

thanks again for all the good thoughts. just to point out -- josie isn't really a puppy anymore (she's almost 20 months) although she wasn't housebroken when we rescued her. but, we only had the one accident in the house and that was in her old crate, which she traveled to NJ in and had probably wet (she was on a plane), and it was her 2nd or 3rd night with us. point being, i don't THINK she'll go in the crate. anyway, last night, we went to bed at 9:30, and at 1:30 (it's like clockwork -- i swear she can tell time) she whimpered a little bit. i waited quietly, and she stopped almost immediately, and that was it. she slept through till morning and, in fact, is still sleeping, although i did take her out to pee just now. so she lasted about 8 hours. i think it helped that i took her on a longer-than-usual bedtime walk last night -- it was about 20-25 minutes, and she peed 6 times! so her bladder was most definitely empty when she went to bed!

this is encouraging. thanks again for the advice.

akita -- good luck with your new pup!! they sure are beautiful dogs.

spiritdogs

Posted : 10/26/2006 6:49:35 AM

For all the lurkers out there, housebreaking an older dog is the same as housebreaking a pup, except that the adult dog's bladder control should be better, obviously. For puppies, as little ones, they should be able to hold their bladder for about one hour more than their age in months. But, they will also have to pee pretty immediately after waking, eating, drinking, or playing. The key to successful housetraining is supervision, combined with no scolding, rewarding when they're right, and using the same words all the time.

glenmar

Posted : 10/26/2006 7:01:27 AM

Aside from everything ELSE Anne said, who the heck wants to have to wash peed on bedding and dogs every morning?

While this doesn't apply in this case, when I have a pup or new rescue, the crate goes right next to my bed. If there is whimpering in the nite, I reach over and put my fingers through the door and shhhhh and comfort a tiny bit. If the pup settles, he was just frightened. If the fussing continues, he needs to potty.

It sounds like she is maybe settling in a bit and going to stop the night time crying. This is a scarey new world for her and it will take her some time to adjust and be less frightened....and being alone at nite is really scarey in a new situation, so if her crate can be in your bedroom, all the better.

Sherith Pankratz

Posted : 10/26/2006 8:20:42 AM

thanks, that was one of my thoughts -- that she maybe wakes up and gets a little scared at night. the crate does go in our bedroom, though it's on my husband's side of the bed and it's me that she's so attached to. maybe i should move it over to my side! that's a great suggestion, to just put your fingers through and say "i'm here" and see if that helps. i also put in an old shirt of mine with her in the crate last night, thinking that might help her feel more secure. we'll get there!

glenmar

Posted : 10/26/2006 8:33:16 AM

[blockquote]
[blockquote]
You're welcome. Just a soothing noise works for me, and yes, your side of the bed might be more helpful.....if your dh is anything like mine it takes a bomb to wake him! I hear everything.[/blockquote][/blockquote]