Dog Community

Getting frustrated!

Posted : 9/26/2006 10:43:57 AM

Alright...I've had my dog for 2 1/2 weeks now...she's a Pointer (possibly) mix or something, and she's about 4 years old. I had a few problems with her having accidents over the first few days, but she had diarreah, so I don't think it was her fault in anyway...plus, you can't expect instant housebreaking. Anyway, her diarreah cleared up, and she was PERFECT for about a week or so. Not one accident. I would take her out at 7am when I got up, agian at 11 for lunch, 3pm when I got hom, and around 9:30-10 before I went to bed. As I said...she did great. I figured she was already housebroken, and only had accidents before due to diarreah.

Fast forward to this past Friday. I decided to try and not take her out at 11 (cuz I may not always be able to get away from work), and see how she does with only being taken out three times a day. I come home at 3, and she pooped in her crate. Fine, I wasn't mad...she'd been used to going out at 11, although almost always she doesn't potty until the 3 o'clock outting. Over the weekend I don't crate her much, unless I leave...I hadn't been crating her at nigiht, but I keep her in my bedroom, and no accidents. I woke up on Sunday morning to a piddle....made no sense at all...I hadn't deviated at ALL from our normal routine...she had the accident before 7am.

Then yesterday....took her out at 7am, she didn't potty, but that's normal...she only usually goes once a day, ususally around 3. (not always). Came home at 11 to get her, and she'd pooped in her crate again! It wasn't diarreah, either...but she'd pooped, and gotten it all over her, and her toys.

Soooo, then today....I decided to change it up SLIGHTLY....I fed her BEFORE taking her out this morning...fed her at 7, took her out at 7:45. She DID pee this time, but didn't poop. And I came home at 10, instead of 11, in hopes that I'd get her to poop outside. SHE POOPED IN HER CRATE AGAIN!!!! I'm starting to think she isn't not doing it because she can't hold it, but because she is acting out because I'm leaving her in her crate. Is that possible? I'm getting EXTREMELY frustrated with this. This will be the second day in a row that I didn't even get to eat lunch because I spent the entire lunch hour cleaning up smelly poo, and cleaning HER.

I don't feed her meals in her crate, but I do feed her treats in there...starting with her evening meal, I will start feeding her meals in there, because I know they don't like pooping where they eat. I figured the fact that she gets treats in there would help defer that, but I guess not.

Please help! Any advice is appreciated!

jetty

Posted : 9/26/2006 2:58:24 PM

Is it possible that she has a health problem? I don't think its normal to only pee or poop once a day???

Maybe you should go back to the routine that was working originally? If I were you, I'd get up earlier and "insist" that she does her business before you have to leave for work. Teaching your dog to

otty on command is quite easy if you reward her everytime she does it.

I can't really offer advice on crate training since I don't do that. I hope someone else comes along who knows what to do with a dog that soils their crate. I've read that you either need to disinfect with an enzyme cleaner so there is absolutely no smell and treat her like a puppy that cannot hold herself (which means extra walks, no free range of the house, which she probably shouldn't have so soon anyway) OR with dogs that have learned the crate is a place to potty, you often need to come up with an alternative place to confine them like an x-pen/small doggy proof room (they still need to be let out frequently if they don't know how to hold themselves - is a dog walker or doggy daycare possible?).

Corry Engelbrecht

Posted : 9/26/2006 3:11:43 PM

But that's the thing. She CAN hold it. Other than the ONE accident where she peed in my bedroom this weekend, and the one time she pooped in the living room from diarreah, she's never pooped in the house, other than in her crate. During the weekends she is hardly in her crate at all, because I'm home....and her schedule to go out remains exactly the same as during the week....and she has NOT had an accident inside.

And I can't go back to the routine that seemed to be working, because I didn't change it in the first place...because that's the routine that suddenly doesn't work. I TRIED to change it friday, and it didn't work, so that was the only day I changed it. I did her normal routine yesterday, and she had an accident again. So, since it didn't seem to be working for her, I tried to change it SLIGHTLY in her favor...I came home EARLIER to take her out, so she wouldn't have to wait so long, and she'd already had an accident.

This has led me to believe that it's not a problem of 'I can't hold it' but rather a problem of "I'm mad that you leave me in the crate, so I'm gonna get attention by poopign in my crate (or something like that)" Could that be possible?

jetty

Posted : 9/26/2006 3:24:31 PM

ORIGINAL: Corry This has led me to believe that it's not a problem of 'I can't hold it' but rather a problem of "I'm mad that you leave me in the crate, so I'm gonna get attention by poopign in my crate (or something like that)" Could that be possible?

*I* don't think that's the reason - I think most research indicates that dogs do not do things out of spite - although sometimes you have to wonder if more if going in in their brain![

]

This does sound strange - I can only guess a health problem, or she doesn't understand that her crate is a safe place NOT a potty place or she is desperate to go and can't hold herself. Do you know anything about her previous life? For all we know, she was "trained" to think that she should potty indoors or more specifically in her crate.

I am sorry I cannot give you better advice. I do think that walking her until she does her business is a good place to start BUT if she thinks she should be pottying indoors, you will have to undo all that with patient training! Dogs tend to need to do their business after they have been active - so perhaps taking her for longer walks or playing ball, visiting the dog park so she is running will make her go before you have to leave her for the morning/day.

Because she is seemingly soiling her crate quite soon after you have left, I don't think she understands what's expected of her. I hope others will post their thoughts and ideas because aside from treating her like a puppy and giving her lots of potty breaks throughout the day, I am not sure where else to start.

inne

Posted : 9/27/2006 1:04:39 AM

Eating and exercise encourage dogs to eliminate. Feeding her before you take her out is a good idea. Do you also exercise her in the morning? How late in the evening are you feeding her? Is her crate an appropriate size?

Corry Engelbrecht

Posted : 9/27/2006 9:47:10 AM

ORIGINAL: inne

Eating and exercise encourage dogs to eliminate. Feeding her before you take her out is a good idea. Do you also exercise her in the morning? How late in the evening are you feeding her? Is her crate an appropriate size?

Yes, she's exersized in the morning...I took her for even longer walks yesterday and this morning. Her crate is teh appropriate size, and I feed her very early (around 4:30).

She's pooping almost immediately after I leave for work. Today, I did all that, and then was able to make it home just ONE HOUR after I left....and she's already pooped. I DON'T GET IT! I'm even feeding her in her crate now. She does NOT do this when I'm at home. Only when she's left alone...which is why I think it's behavioral.

Corry Engelbrecht

Posted : 9/27/2006 1:37:35 PM

Is there ANYONE that can help me? I feel it's a behavior/anxiety thing. Am I right? What do I do about it?

DPU

Posted : 9/27/2006 2:04:19 PM

Corry, please reference the Behavioral/Problems and Habits. Reference the threads from DPU and NicoleS. We are both having dog anxiety issues and are trying to deal with it. We received a lot of good advice and it seems NicoleS is way ahead in solving her problem. Just so you know, my Marvin is doing the identical thing your Little Pointer is doing. It is such a time consuming mess to clean. Good luck.

Corry Engelbrecht

Posted : 9/28/2006 8:50:12 AM

Thanks, I didn't think to look there. I did do a search trying to find other threads though...found some stuff, but not a whole lot that specifically deals with my problem.

Hopefully I've made a breakthrough today though....SHE POOPED OUTSIDE THIS MORNING!!!!!! I had taken her mess and put it outside, not in the spot she normally goes in (which is a little further away than I want to have to go to EVERY time I take her out), but in the little patch of grass right outside my apartment. I'd done it before and it didn't work,b ut I thought I'd try it again...AND IT WORKED! Pray for me that she keeps it up!

NicoleS

Posted : 9/28/2006 9:15:34 AM

Corry - good work! Hope this lasts for you

There's a ton of information on here, it's just hard to search appropriately for all the threads. But the folks on here change and sometimes a thread from 6 months ago has great info and now there are different people so you get different ideas. Always worth trying to find the right words to get you past topics.

As DPU said, both he and I are battling something resembling separation anxiety. I say it that way since our behaviorist thinks that Sammy has more frustrations than he does anxiety, though we're working on it. Marvin may have true SA or something different, but they present similarly.

Try to find a list of things common to SA. There are several things that the behaviorist said Sammy ISN'T doing that lead her to think not true SA. Sammy DOESN'T go the bathroom in his crate - that's SA. Sammy DOESN'T pant/froth from the mouth from being so worked up - SA. Other things include ALWAYS being the same way - anxiety can't be turned on and off - so the fact that we have GREAT days and BAD days says it's not SA.

If you think it might be SA, then I recommend Patricia McConnell's I'll Be Home Soon booklet. It's a great, short read on SA and how very few dogs REALLY have it. I thought ours did, very much so. He chews on his crate like there's no tomorrow and injures himself - but the dog trainer says frustration and possibly boredom. Or some amount of claustrophobia.

So..... there are MANY reasons why your pup can be doing this. anxiety is one of the many. Not sure if dogs really do things out of "spite" but hey it could be. It could also be that's she 4 and new to a new home and just settling in. Was she with her previous family a long time? Sometimes it's hard to adapt and this is one way to show it.

You obviously know that she's doing it soon after you leave - can you crate her for 15-20 minutes BEFORE you leave, and see if she goes? If it's SA she won't since you're still there, if its something to do with her crate then maybe she will.

One other point before I go do some work. Do you crate her other than when you leave? try crating her when you are home. sometimes if an older dog isn't used to a crate this helps them get used to it as well. you don't want the dog to know that going in the crate = you leaving or it increase anxiety etc.

Let us know how she is when you get home

Corry Engelbrecht

Posted : 9/28/2006 12:54:23 PM

Thanks.

Judging by what you wrote, I don't think she has true seperation anxiety. I thought she might have a touch of it, since she ONLY does this when I leave, and that's it. She doesn't do it when I'm at home. Other than when she had diarreah, she hasn't shown at all that she can't hold it. She'd done well. She hasn't pooped in the house, other than in her crate.

I DID realize one thing that did change a bit...I was putting her in her crate less. I stopped putting her in her crate overnight about a week ago (she doesn't have free roam, just my bedroom...and she sleeps the whole time)...and when I'm home, I leave her out most of the time, though I usually crate her while I eat (and she's never whined....I think she just knows she has to behave while I eat or something!

).

I think I will start crating her a bit more often, for short periods of time while I'm at home again.

DPU

Posted : 9/28/2006 2:13:02 PM

You may want to start giving your little Pointer some alone time under your watchful eye. In trying to desensitize Marvin from being alone in his kennel, I put him in different group situation with one being by himself in the backyard and another time alone in the kitchen. He does not mind the kitchen but gets very anxious when he is alone in the backyard. I think he views the alone time in the backyard as punishment and I have to work on that. I noticed during his alone time in the backyard he pees and poops. So now he gets alone time in the backyard before I leave for work and before I go to bed. Before allowing alone time in the morning I had to work on the barking and howling. He still poops in the kennel but not as much. He is getting closer to being crated.

Maxs Mom

Posted : 9/28/2006 2:46:54 PM

Corry,

I am no expert however, when I got my golden Maxine we had the same issues. She was a puppy, but she was long since housebroken and I still could not leave her out of her crate. On the weekends when we would be home she would be perfect, no accidents, ask when she needed to go out, sleep all night not getting up once until we woke up. However when I went to work at 8:30 and came home at noon to let her out, she would have pooped and pee'd in her crate. This went on for MONTHS!!! If we put her in her crate to go to the grocery store we would come home to a mess. No matter what.

Finally I enrolled her in obedience class. She was an obedient dog already but I was told it would give her confidence. Low and behold it worked. The trainers firmly believed it was separation anxiety, and that the obedience would help her deal with that. I think it was a combo of separation anxiety and SHE HATES THE CRATE!!!! To this day, she has a fit when we are preparing to go any where (she is almost 10), and the ONLY time she will go in the crate is when our other dog is in it. We go to competitions with our dogs and have to crate them if Belle isn't in the crate Max will not go in.

I remember how frustrated I was. You can't trust them to not be in the crate because they mess the crate. By the way by Maxine's 3rd night with us, she was 6 wks old she was sleeping all night outside the crate. If we put her in it she threw a fit. Not barking but SCREAMING. We had to sleep. Finally we gated our bedroom off, let her out she curled up with our lab at the time Shadow, and fell asleep. Never to have another sleepless night. She would sleep until at least 6AM I was amazed. Not one accident. So when at 1 year she couldn't go 1 hour in the crate, I had to do something.

Good Luck! Give her time and lots of deep breaths, you can do it too. Sounds like she is a rescue, who knows what she is thinking when you leave. Maybe she hasn't quite figured out yet that you will always return.

Ann

Corry Engelbrecht

Posted : 9/29/2006 12:22:16 PM

Two days in a row, she's pooped outside, in the same spot! WOOT! I was 20 minutes late for work, but I finally got her to go. I hope this continues!

Pam

Posted : 9/29/2006 2:38:29 PM

Sometimes you have to wait and wait and wait for them to go!   (6 month puppy)

Last nite, we had a bad storm. She was freaked out. She had last peed/pooped at 1:00 at lunch. Normally she goes at 5/6 when I get home. Nope. So I fed her and sweated it out. At 8:00 took her out. NOPE, too scared of lightning and thunder. Back in till 9:00. Back out in the rain. She had to go SOMETIME! So I got wet and she got wet and the other dogs got wet. I finally let her off the leash and then she went off and found a spot and did both (in our fenced backyard) . YEA .     So I sweated it out for 3 hours tilll she went.
      She has pooped twice in the living room even when I thought she had no poop left in her,,,ie.   she had gone recently.