Am I the leader?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Am I the leader?

    So after it was suggested I try the NILIF approach I think things have improved with Harley.  We still need to get into obedience, but the class I want to get her in doesn't start till June.  She listens to me most of the time.  I know some her behavior is still due to her only being 10 months old. 
     
    But I was reading this trainers website and there was a leadership checklist and one of the things was
     
    If you establish eye contact, dog must avert gaze first. Casual glances are OK
     
    Harley does not do this.  She just stares back.  Does this mean she doesn't see me in the leadership position?
    • Gold Top Dog
    I would not read too much in to that kind of thing. Yes, in the wild lower status animals avert their gaze from higher status ones. But a huge part of having a good training relationship with your dog as a human is excellent eye contact. Humans like eye contact and we tend to reward it from our dogs in subtle and not so subtle ways and our dogs quickly learn that they need not aver thier gazes from us and in fact we like it when they look us in the eye.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ok that's what I was wondering.  Because I've seen trainers tell the dogs to "watch me"  It would seem if you want your dog to look away when you look at them then it would seem like you are sending them mixed messages.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I've wondered about that too. When I first adopted Ixa, I saw suggestions for bonding with a newly adopted dog which included long eye gazing.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Our behaviorist taught us the opposite - to hold treats up in front of our faces so the dog would look at us and not be looking away while we are trying to get the dog to execute a command.  I guess if you want to stare down the dog to exercise dominance, the dog would have to submit by looking away, but I think there's better ways of establishing leadership and control.  It seems counter-intuitive to NILF for the dog have to lose focus and turn away.  You don't want your dog staring YOU down, but I think that's different than the dog just looking at you for direction or because it might get a reward.  If a dog is going to stare you down, it probably won't be sitting calmly waiting for a command or treat while it happens to be looking at your face, it would be showing you other body positions that indicate you've got a problem controlling the dog.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Harleygirl

    So after it was suggested I try the NILIF approach I think things have improved with Harley.  We still need to get into obedience, but the class I want to get her in doesn't start till June.  She listens to me most of the time.  I know some her behavior is still due to her only being 10 months old. 

    But I was reading this trainers website and there was a leadership checklist and one of the things was
     
    If you establish eye contact, dog must avert gaze first. Casual glances are OK
     
    Harley does not do this.  She just stares back.  Does this mean she doesn't see me in the leadership position?


    It could mean that she trusts you and has learned that the human doesn't mind the direct gaze.  In fact, I teach my dogs that eye contact with me is great, just as Liesje's behaviorist told her to do - it helps with those nice attention heels, and it helps with recalls, too.  As houndlove said, don't read too much into it.  Being a leader involves way more than eye contact.  It means being predictably safe, controlling resources, and asking the dog to earn its privileges.  So simple you would think most humans could grasp the concept...[;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Harleygirl

    So after it was suggested I try the NILIF approach I think things have improved with Harley.  We still need to get into obedience, but the class I want to get her in doesn't start till June.  She listens to me most of the time.  I know some her behavior is still due to her only being 10 months old. 

    But I was reading this trainers website and there was a leadership checklist and one of the things was
     
    If you establish eye contact, dog must avert gaze first. Casual glances are OK
     
    Harley does not do this.  She just stares back.  Does this mean she doesn't see me in the leadership position?

     
    Depends upon what's happening within the moment.
     
    Eye contact is a form of communication which can change depending upon what needs to be communicated. A disciplinary look has a harder "tone" to it. A lot of moms are good at this one! Some wives will use what's known as "the look" with their husbands, too. [;)]
     
    I will sometimes use a "look down my nose" communication and will not break my gaze when I mean business. I also have a really hard, "locked on target" gaze towards a dog which is loose and after my dog on a walk because I want that dog to "feel" my presence and get their focus off of my dog and onto me...once it's onto me they usually avert gaze and break it off.
     
    My dog watches me and makes eye contact all of the time whether we are simply interacting, working on tricks, focusing on a task, or sharing affection. In these moments we are functioning within our established leader/follower relationship. But she clearly knows what it means if I give her a low tone and a harder look if her behavior is not acceptable, and she averts gaze and complies with no fear.
     
    Humans are very verbal and tend to go by what's being said until they actually start to study and think about body language, eye contact, and visual cues, IMO.
     
    I usually recommend people not talk to their dogs aside from minimal tones and cues in order to tap into some of the nuances of non-verbal communication. [:D]