Dog Community

Help!!! Dogs Fighting

Posted : 8/27/2006 7:35:33 AM

Okay, I've ran out of idea's on how to cope with this problem. I ended up with two dogs that had been gotten for my next door neighbors kids, and abondand when the family split up. I was able to find a home for Joe (A Brittany Spaniel), only to find him tied to my poarch about 4 months later. (Told there landlord said they couldn't have him) And since I never found one a home for his 'Brother' Hoss, (A Chow-Retriever Mix I think...) I've had him since.
When the two 'Brothers' where reunited they of course had there scraps in our yard, but it was nothing serious. (About a year ago) I was outside and Hoss took to bossing Joe around- and I told him "No". And a simmple as that he stopped all aggression towards Joe. He became so docile, that if Joe challenged him for his food dish, he'd up and walk away. Mind you, this was about a year ago. Sometimes, when they'd lay at my feet Joe would growl and Hoss, would simply get up and walk away. That was the worse of it at the time. Then we bought a house in another town, and moved. The dogs had to stay with my in-laws, who kept them for 2 weeks while I got the new house and pen ready for them. During this time Joe had became real bold. As in the only spot for good shade in my parents yard was under the poarch (a 12x16 foot structure). In Joes mind it wasn't big enough for both of them so he'd run Hoss off. Hoss wouldn't fuss about it, he'd just lay his head down and slink off.[>:]
I figured when I got them back to the new house I'd break Joe of it. WRONG. While I've been with them none stop since I've moved them here a month ago. Even thou I've taken to scoulding, and punishing Joe for growling at his brother he has just gotten more brazen, to the point when he was by my wifes feet he went after Hoss to sho him out from under the comptuer desk, nipping my wife in the process. Yesterday it came to a head. Hoss got tired of being bullied and this time, didn't back down when Joe challenged him. Joe took the first bite, only to find himself on the ground quickly. I was amazed that when he struggle back up, Hoss simply stepped back and took a seat, as if to say "I've beaten you and don't need to do anything else". Joe didn't seem to get the message and launched into him. My wife thought I should stop it, but to be frank, Joe had it coming, and I let Hoss eat his lunch... Hoss dominated from the get, and would throw him down, Joe would try to get up, and when he did Hoss was grabbing hair along his backside and pulling it out- I stopped it only when Joes back was covered with blood. (turns out Hoss had bit his own tounge and it was Hoss's blood) Other then Joe's shattered pride and a cut to his eye I thought that was it. After I cleaned Joe up, I let him back into the house and the first thing on his 'to do' list was to right up to Hoss and growl. It was cut short when Hoss growled back, and Joe turned around and slinked off. [8|] About 4 hours later they where back at it. Joe started it again- and Hoss finished it. (Hoss was sleeping in the living room, under the AC when Joe attacked him) This time I let it go until Joe gave up, thinking that must have been my mistake. Then again this morning. Its getting more and more brutal, and to be honest, Joe is taking some damage, and he doesn't seem to be learning. (figure its the hunting dog in him) This time he's got gashes to his back, his neck, and muzzle. And seems to have a short-term memory loss as to who's been giving it to him. I need some help dealing with this, since if Joe doesn't learn his place, he's going to end up dead at the hands of Hoss, or I'm going to have to get rid of him. Any ideas any of you could give would be greatly appreciated (Sorry for the long post- figured the history might not hurt)

Janey

Posted : 8/27/2006 2:09:02 PM

I really don't think you should let them go at it anymore - keep them separated for the time being. From what I understand, dogs with aggressive propensities - once they fight, and get away with injury, they'll potentially just keep escalating it and the aggression will get worse and you will end up with a seriously injured dog (or dogs), and potentially an injured human that gets in the way. Breaking up a fight can be dangerous for you too, so until you get the problem under control, keep them apart.

As to the aggressiveness, I am not a trainer or a behaviorist, but here's my two cents - they are struggling to establish their position in the pack. They've had some stress in their lives with being abandoned, and rehomed several times, and the stress in moving to a new home may have caused the increase in tension between them. If they get in another fight, separate them (there's no real safe way to get them apart, but I've seen water work wonders). Don't yell and scream, but assume an authoritative voice and stand between them. Put them in down-stays as far away from each other as you can, but while they can still see each other. Don't take one dog out of the room, as this might be perceived as a "win" by the other dog. After they are released, ignore them.

That said, I still think you should keep these guys apart until you can get someone to help you train these dogs to live with each other - consulting with a behaviorist would be an excellent idea, if you can afford it.

cakana

Posted : 8/27/2006 5:50:39 PM

I think JaneyB's advice is perfect and I agree 100% about keeping them separated. If for some reason you feel the need to have them near each other, have them both drag a leash so you can separate them when needed. I have 2 females, a lab and lab mix, and although they did fine in the beginning, once they started fighting, each fight was worse than the one before, harder to break up (water worked the 1st time, but not after that), and they became more frequent. We worked on NLIF with both of them, and it helped a little, but we also manage them 90% of the time separately. Good luck to you, but I would be formulating a plan for rehoming one of these dogs unless you can get some help from a behaviorist and stop the fighting.

Brad Higgins

Posted : 8/27/2006 11:35:16 PM

Polarpawn,

I work with a lot of owners and their dogs and this problem is not uncommon. Here are a couple of questions that could help you to understand their behavior.

Have you noticed these agressive fights happen only when you or your wife are near?

When the dogs are alone, are the standoffs and/or fights less aggressive and shorter?

Is it possibe the fight is being started by the other dog ? Can be as simple as a "look".

If you assume the fight was started by the dog that attacked, and punish him, he will generally escalate. He may feel he was only defending himself. Your involvement only saves the fight for another day. I find that when dogs are fighting for position, it's important that I don't choose sides. It's for them to work out. If I think a fight is coming, I walk away and get out of their sight. Usually stops the aggression right away.

Just some ideas.

Dave Pointer

Posted : 8/28/2006 1:01:27 AM

As far as the fighting goes, they do it wether I'm here or not. [8|] My neighbors are always telling me how they hear barking when I'm gone, and go check, and he's got Hoss holed up somewhere and won't let him get out. In the last 24 hours, they've gotten into it 4 times. With Joe leaving the room I'm in to hunt Hoss down and start it. (Twice the fight started with Hoss sleeping in under the main AC unit in the living room by himself, Joe had to leave the room I was in to find him. (Joe doesn't even like that spot - Lucky for Hoss, his long hair makes him pretty much immune to anything Joe does) It seems all Hoss has to do is breath. Last fight that happened seemed to end it thou. Hoss choked him until he passed out. Now, the two are sleeping under one of the AC units and Hoss is cleaning Joes wounds as I type this. I can only hope this is the end of it- thou on the plus side, they haven't been this chummy since they where pups. *crosses fingers*

mrv

Posted : 8/28/2006 6:15:17 AM

I would suggest seperating the dogs when they are in the yard using two kennel runs. A walkway between the runs may be necessary to prevent fence fighting. I also believe in upping the obedience practice for both dogs (seperately) and working on quick and immediate compliance. That will enable you to use stay commands for peace in the house.

probe1957

Posted : 8/28/2006 8:39:09 AM

Normally, I believe in letting the dogs sort issues out among themselves but, it sounds like if you allow that here, someone might get hurt. I agree. Keep them separated.

cakana

Posted : 8/28/2006 9:14:19 AM

Have you noticed these agressive fights happen only when you or your wife are near?

When the dogs are alone, are the standoffs and/or fights less aggressive and shorter?

Is it possibe the fight is being started by the other dog ? Can be as simple as a "look".

Just curious, but most of the answers to this question are a "yes" in my situation. Our 2 girls have never gotten into a fight unless we were present and if there's a stare down and we walk away, it ends. I know with certainty that they don't fight when we're gone because when they do fight, it takes both my DH and I to break them apart, so I can't imagine them ever getting into a fight and then it just ending on it's own. I'm just curious what that means. Are they trying to prove something to us? I've actually noticed the younger lab, Sassy, will corner Buffy and then look to us as if to say "see, I've got her cornered, isn't that nice?" We handle it very carefully because if we make a big deal out of it and Buffy reacts, that can lead to a fight.

mudpuppy

Posted : 8/28/2006 9:45:36 AM

If you have often stepping in and stopped the dogs from scrapping, the submissive dog may feel it's safe to attack the dominant dog in your presence because you'll back her up. Human meddling in doggy dominance heirarchies tend to have the opposite effect that the humans intend-- which is to cause more violence. Normal dogs quickly set up a dominance heirarchy, and after that they don't scrap or discipline each other much because they all know their places.
In a real dog pack, the leaders don't interfere in fighting among subordinates. They don't care who is beta and who is omega. Beta-level dogs may bully omegas mercilessly. The alpha doesn't care.
So the best tactic humans who have multi-dog households can take is to a) reduce chances of fighting by keeping resources put away-- no toys lying around, no bones lying around, feed the dogs separately; and b) reward polite behavior. You want your dogs to realize the way to get your attention is to be polite. Rude pushy dogs get ignored. Soon you'll have dogs competing as to who can be the most polite; and c) try not to interfere with their scrapping amongst themselves or you may end up with a pack that can't settle into a stable heirarchy because of you.

If you do have dogs that have decided to kill each other, there's little you can do other than keep them permanently separated.

Dave Pointer

Posted : 8/28/2006 11:19:42 AM

I just want to thank you all for your answers and insights. As it stands now I have peace in the house. (about 6 fights that I am aware of in 48 hours) Joe is now following Hoss around submissivly, and will lay down about where ever Hoss lays down. Then Hoss well tend to Joes wounds, which is nice, since he did inflict them- (even thou it wasn't his idea) Right now they are resting at my feet, ready to go do something togather. So we are off for a walk.

Brad Higgins

Posted : 8/28/2006 1:08:05 PM

Cathy,

I think you are doing the right thing by walking away when the staredown begins. It is usually successful in stopping confrontations. At that time, you could also do something to distract the dog (break their focus).

Also, when your dog is challenging another dog and looks at you, I would avoid making eye contact, just ignore or walk away. Showing indifference is a powerful tool that pack leaders often use. In my opinion, the most important thing in managing our packs is to have good timing.

Breaking up a fight is rarely successful. Our involvement as pack leaders can be successful just as the confrontation begins. If our timing is late and the fight begins, I find it best, in most cases, to walk away.

In studying pack dynamics, you'll see that the leader, in most cases, does not care about the pack order other than he is number one. The other dogs will establish and maintain an order under him (or her). The way dogs see it, in the

ack, there are no equals. That's why there are occasional disagreements.

I think you're on the right track.

Brad Higgins

cakana

Posted : 8/28/2006 2:19:36 PM

Breaking up a fight is rarely successful. Our involvement as pack leaders can be successful just as the confrontation begins. If our timing is late and the fight begins, I find it best, in most cases, to walk away.

Thanks for the feedback. I especially agree with your comment about them looking at me while in the middle of a confrontational stare down. Is that because they think it's a good thing and they're looking for affirmation?

It's been 4 years since we rescued Sassy (the younger lab), and I've heard the comment about letting them "work it out" when they fight from the beginning, and I can tell you based on my experience, I can't see that working with my girls. They don't growl or make any noise at all, and "the look" isn't always obvious, so once they're in a full blown fight, ignoring them and walking away would probably lead to more serious injuries. I can't say that for sure because I've never done it, but in my mind, for a fight to end, someone's got to let go and I don't see that happening. They usually lock together somewhere near the head/face and neither releases until we literally pry them apart. Here's a quote from a ltr from the behaviorist we took them to:
"It is apparent that Buffy and Sassy enjoy each other's company. As with any two individuals living together, there are going to be conflicts, and sometimes concessions or compromises must be made. If these issues can be worked out with minimal damage, both physically and to the relationship between the dogs, peace will prevail. Just allowing dogs to 'work things out' may not be the best strategy, if there are no attempts to reduce the intensity of known triggers. The goal is for these dogs to get the full measure of each other over low intensity encounters."

Basically, she said to do whatever we could to insure the dogs don't fight. They are fed separately (can't even see each other eating), never given treats when together and all toys are put away unless we're playing with one of them, which we do separately. We do find that they pretty much ignore each other unless we're around though, and I've always assumed that's why they don't fight unless we're with them.

spiritdogs

Posted : 8/28/2006 4:32:08 PM

There are two resources you may want to take a look at:
Trish King's DVD "Multiple Dogs" (Google "Tawzer Dog Videos"), and Jean Donaldson's book "Fight!"
Trish is the director of behavior at the Marin Humane Society, and Jean Donaldson is at San Francisco SPCA's instructor training program.