Inappropriate elimination issues.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Inappropriate elimination issues.

     First, a little back ground on Greta.

    Six-ish year old labrador retriever, rescued about a year and a half ago.

    We know nothing of her history, except the few days before we got her when she wondered up to a garage.

    She has been spayed. She has received regular veterinary care, she's on hw preventative (Interceptor).

    She came to us house trained, very well mannered.

    She's a very clingy dog, I call her my shadow.

    Lives with a toy poodle, a foster pointer mix (who just left last week), a two year old child (who is potty training), a nine year old child, myself and my husband.

    Now, on to the problem.

    About two weeks ago, I'd left the dogs inside when I went out to feed the horses and when I came back in, my daughter told me one of the dogs had had an accident in the floor.

    I *assumed* it was our foster, that we'd had for about three months, even though she'd been doing terrific with her house training, I figured accidents happen. I cleaned it up, cleaned the carpet, no one got corrected because I didn't know for sure who it was and didn't witness it.

    A couple days later, I again, had gone out to feed the horses, left the dogs inside. When I came back in, my husband told me that one of the dogs had had an accident in the floor. We, once again assumed it was the foster dog. 

    Foster dog went to her forever home last Thursday.

    Friday afternoon, I'd gone out to the mail box, left Greta inside. Came back in to a pile in the floor in the baby's room. Corrected Greta, cleaned the carpet and *hoped* it was a fluke.

     Sunday, we'd been in and out all day, Greta following me around the property and such as we worked. Around lunch time, I put her and the poodle in the house, as I had to run an errand and knew husband would be too busy to keep an eye on them, but since he was going to be going in and out, I left them out in the main part of the house. Normally if I have to actually leave to go somewhere, I put them in the laundry room.  When I got back, there, again, was a pile in the floor in the baby's room. So, again, I corrected Greta, and cleaned the carpet well. 

    At that point, I began to assume it was a seperation anxiety issue and knew I had to make sure she was put in the laundry room if I had to step out of the house and leave her behind even if I was just going to check the mail.

    Well, this morning, I'm moving some furniture from one room to another and she's following me around and such. We're upstairs which consists of a playroom in the center and a room on either side. One room is my oldest daughter's room, which the door stays closed, the other room is my work out/sewing/catch-all room. 

    I'm working on setting up a sewing table, look up just in time to see Greta squatting right in front of me peeing.

    I grab her by the collar, show her the pee and tell her NO! NO! NO! in a very stern voice, then start to take her out of the room and was going to put her in the laundry room for a while... when I step out into the play room, I see where she's also pooed in the floor. Again, I show her the poo, tell her NO! NO! NO!, drag her downstairs and put her in the laundry room.

    I went back upstairs and cleaned the carpet very well.

    Now, poos are normal. No diarrhea or abnormal color/texture/anything like that. The pee this morning appeared normal, no strong odor or odd color.

    My question is, we've had her for a year and a half.... why is she doing this? This is so not like her. She's the one dog I've trusted to not do things like this...... and other than this sudden lapse in house training (I don't know what else to call it) she's acting completely normal.

    I've talked with a couple different dog people who have suggested it be anything from separation anxiety, jealousy over the kids,  grief over the foster leaving (although she was apparently doing it before the foster left) even to maybe she's picking up on the baby having potty accidents and it's upsetting her?

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    First thought, maybe Greta is going in places your foster had accidents?

    Second, you really aren't teaching her by "correcting" her.  She doesn't understand being shown the urine or poop and being told "no", esp. after the fact.  She cannot link the two things together.  Keeping her leashed to you or crated so she is not unsupervised is a good idea.

    Last, have you considered taking her to your vet?  Something may be off that needs attention. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    mehpenn
    She's a very clingy dog,

     

    This is something to take note of.

    mehpenn
    Corrected Greta, cleaned the carpet and *hoped* it was a fluke.

     

    mehpenn
    again, was a pile in the floor in the baby's room. So, again, I corrected Greta, and cleaned the carpet well. 

     

    mehpenn
    I see where she's also pooed in the floor. Again, I show her the poo, tell her NO! NO! NO!, drag her downstairs and put her in the laundry room.

     

    Do you see a pattern here?  This doesn't work and in fact you're making the problem worse.  This is a behavior issue but what caused it is impossible for us to know.  It could be related to separation anxiety as you mentioned she's clingy.  I suggest you educate yourself about dealing with separaton anxiety in dogs by reading some articles by some behaviorists such as Patricia McConnell and Jean Donaldson.  In the meantime, stop punishing her.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    Dogs often deal less well with "change" than we assume -- just because *YOU* knew the foster was temporary, doesn't mean Greta did.  And it's impossible from where we stand to evaluate -- did she ASK to go out and was ignored?  Have her signals changed? 

    Her health could be a huge part of this, so you have to start there -- sometimes "clingy" can mask other things.

    Punishing her will do zero -- because she's likely confused in addition to everything else.  That doesn't mean you have to "approve" or be all sweet and "oh poor baby" either.  Your reactions send a message -- hence Jackie's suggestions have huge merit.  this girl is likely confused -- all the rules have changed and she may be really unsure of her own place.

    Let me say this a bit differently --

    When you point to a pile of waste and say sternly "NO NO NO" -- in essence she thinks you're telling her you don't like HER.  Of course she knows it's her waste.  But it's a human leap to assume the dog *understands* that your objection is to where she PUT it. 

    They identify with their waste -- 99 dogs could accurately identify 99 other dogs merely by a whif -- but "NO NO NO" doesn't say "You put it in the wrong spot".  It simply tells her you don't like her. ... at that moment. 

     So the point is you have to communicate to her you don't want her to PUT it **THERE**. 

    You didn't housetrain her initially.  You literally have to go back and re-train her because somewhere this has all broken down -- and it's likely that the foster leaving may have had something to do with it -- but we don't know.

    In order to re-train her -- you have to catch her **at that moment**.  So prevent the behavior.  Leash her to you -- or crate her when you can't have her with you.  Make it impossible for her TO screw up so you can then direct her to where you DO want her to put it.

    I've been known to "move" a mess outside on paper towel.  This isn't everyone's way but I've found it effective.  Particularly with an older, established dog.  I'll swing by, ON LEASH, the site of the accident and simply say "Not there -- Out!" and walk swiftly to the outside where I have *moved* the waste.

     "Here -- yes, that's yours.  It must go HERE .. not inside" (or similar).  It makes an impression on them -- you RELOCATED it -- you weren't happy with it there ... now it's here and it's ok.  IN fact you linger inviting her to elminate THERE.

    But if you point to an accident that happened ... "a while ago" -- all you're communicating is "that is you and I don't like YOU" -- the "where" of it literally never enters their head.

    If you think about that for a while -- then you can understand why folks are saying your treatment of her accidents actually has fueled her confusion -- she continues to put it in places inside because when she DOES it -- no one is there to care.  But ... she's more nervous because now you don't like her -- and the last guy got given away.

    They have a really elementary psychology -- and confusion happens easily.

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs
    Punishing her will do zero --

     

    Actually it will do a lot.  It will destroy any trust she has in the owner.  It will teach her that people are unpredictable.  It will teach her to hide her accidents better.  I know I've taken your words out of context to some extent but I felt it's important to emphasize that punishing the dog for improper elimination has long term consequences that can last a lifetime.

     

    calliecritturs
    In order to re-train her -- you have to catch her **at that moment**. 

    If you're implying that if Greta is caught in the act it's ok to punish her, I disagree.  Especially with this dog who has already been unfairly punished.  Any accidents should be completely ignored and the owner should spank herself with a rolled up newspaper for letting it happen. 

     I do agree that redoing her housetraining using positive reinforcement when she goes outside is one way to start to overcome the problem.

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG

    calliecritturs
    Punishing her will do zero --

    Actually it will do a lot.  It will destroy any trust she has in the owner.  It will teach her that people are unpredictable.  It will teach her to hide her accidents better.  I know I've taken your words out of context to some extent but I felt it's important to emphasize that punishing the dog for improper elimination has long term consequences that can last a lifetime.

    You've said it PERFECTLY Jackie -- I was at work and didn't get time to re-read (sorry, was trying to post in a rush). 

    Everything we do -- every interaction we have with them DOES teach something -- it teaches good ... or it teaches bad ... it sows trust ... or distrust. 

    A lot of us grew up in the "rub their nose in it" training style -- heck -- my parents used something very similar on me.  Didn't work well on me either -- sowed a lot of distrust.  When I said it will do "zero" I meant it will do zero as far as resolving the problem and getting her back on track.

    JackieG

    If you're implying that if Greta is caught in the act it's ok to punish her, I disagree.  Especially with this dog who has already been unfairly punished.  Any accidents should be completely ignored and the owner should spank herself with a rolled up newspaper for letting it happen. 

     I do agree that redoing her housetraining using positive reinforcement when she goes outside is one way to start to overcome the problem.

    Again, Jackie I"m really glad you followed behind me because no, I didn't mean it was ok to punish her.  I meant that's the only time you can really easily impress on them "no, not here ... OUT there" easily.  Dogs don't get toilets, toilet paper, human fastidiousness -- they DO know we go inside and I think it's far less "obvious" than most humans really think it is (I've had more than one dog who chose the bathroom as the place to *have* accidents - I mean ... it's THE place!). 

    The older I get, the more dogs I train the more I realize the simple beauty of just plain making sure they can't screw up and they will then largely form good habits easily.

    I don't "ignore" accidents tho ... not totally.  I don't punish -- it's just not productive and it doesn't work well.  But I do acknowledge... I simply point out as I whiz past with the dog ON LEASH "nuh uh .....Not there ...." and then show them where I've moved their waste to OUTSIDE "Go HERE -- see that's IS yours!".   It sends a pretty clear message.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Punishment is a controversial subject and rightfully so.  My problem with most punishment is that it's not delivered within a few seconds of the offense and that most people use punishment in the hopes their dog will stop doing something they don't want it to do.  It's so much easier to train a dog what to do rather than using punishment that obviously isn't working.

    I would suggest that the OP also start spending time every day with Greta doing some basic obedience training.  Even if Greta is perfect at sit, heel and here, the time spent training will strengthen the bond between owner and dog.  Another benefit is Greta will gain confidence. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     I had the same problem!! All the yelling and punishing didn't work for me either. Then DH finally learned to make sure the dog went potty before he went on to do other things. (fyi, if it wasn't clear, DH was the one I yelled at)

    It could be something as simple as her potty times have changed.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I should clarify that "correcting her" is not beating/hitting/slapping/kicking/getting physcial with her.

    Correcting her is taking her by the collar, showing her the poo and telling her NO, sternly.

    I don't believe the "accidents" should be ignored.... I ignored the first two and now it's happening more. I believe nothing happened when she did it the first two times, so she figured it was okay.

    DH got up last night after I came to bed, to go get a drink of water and she accidently got closed out of the bedroom for like three minutes, before I realized she wasn't on her bed... and in that time, she pooed in the floor. Same spot. (One of two spots she does this.)

    Maybe I'm not cleaning the carpet thoroughly enough? I've scrubbed till my hands cramped. I'm going by the petstore today to get more cleaner, maybe I'm not using enough of it... maybe I should try a different brand.

    • Gold Top Dog

    mehpenn
    show her the poo, tell her NO! NO! NO!, drag her downstairs and put her in the laundry room.

    Well, you may not be hitting her, but dragging her by the collar downstairs isn't exactly a non-physical form of "correcting" her.

    Maybe, instead of going to the pet store, go to the book store and find the books recommended in Jackie's post. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    mehpenn
    I ignored the first two and now it's happening more. I believe nothing happened when she did it the first two times, so she figured it was okay.

     

    Sorry, but this is completely wrong thinking.  That might apply to human children but dogs don't think this way.  Please do some reading on dog behavior.

    mehpenn
    she accidently got closed out of the bedroom for like three minutes, before I realized she wasn't on her bed... and in that time, she pooed in the floor. Same spot.

     

    This is another clue that makes me think this is an anxiety issue.  You wouldn't punish a child who was fearful and acting out would you? 
    • Gold Top Dog

    editing again because I can't spell this morning 

    mehpenn

     I should clarify that "correcting her" is not beating/hitting/slapping/kicking/getting physcial with her.

    Correcting her is taking her by the collar, showing her the poo and telling her NO, sternly.

    I don't believe the "accidents" should be ignored.... I ignored the first two and now it's happening more. I believe nothing happened when she did it the first two times, so she figured it was okay.

    Honestly, you were clear the first time that you weren't abusing her by hiting, etc. ...

    But even a stern tone and the word "no" -- **truly** to her what you are saying amounts to one of two things.  Either don't elminate at all ... or DOG **YOU** are a NO NO!!.

    Remember how much dogs identify with their waste -- it IS their mark.  It's how they tell each other apart.  She's honestly not going to associate the "where" of where she left it as displeasing you because she did it inside rather than outside.

    Now here is where I disagree just a bit with most people.  I don't "ignore" bad behavior either -- BUT neither do I "punish".  (and you have to be pretty careful or to a sensitive dog a 'stern no" may be seen as the ultimate in "I failed to please you!";).  But I will comment something similar to "Not ... There!" while enroute to the place that IS acceptable.  But at the same time, my way is to **teach** what I do want -- both by putting them in a situation where it's difficult for them to choose 'wrong' but also by using verbal commands, and yes - even explanations at time, to help reinforce to the dog that not only do I want THIS behavior, but don't choose *that* one either -- no to that, yes to this.  But the "no" needs to be no nonsense, but not a huge correction either.

    It's a fine line, and I know I'm unusual in my way of training.  "ignoring" the bad does work -- I just like them to be mentally more accountable to me than that.  It's just how I bond with my dogs.

    I have to agree with Jackie -- the fact that it occurred SO quickly when she was **separated** ... I think that probably tells you volumes.  Remember, this girl has never *had* accidents.  And now you've fostered a dog and that dog has now been removed from the home.  Greta may have completely not understood that your foster was temporary. 

    Some dogs really never do well in a situation where folks "foster" -- meaning, the dogs get attached TO the foster dog and truly get unnerved when it is removed from the home.  We periodically do quite a bit of fostering, but I've learned *the hard way* that a foster MUST be treated differently while they are living with us so MY dogs don't suffer when the foster is placed.

    You'll never know what happened in her prior home -- but given how well trained she was, it likely was a situations where there was some "thing" that occurred that the dog never understood.  Things like a new girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband who objects to the dog, or someone's allergies or what have you ... Suddenly the dog is simply "gone". 

    I have a feeling this girl is trembling in her footprints -- and in her angst she's doing the very thing that makes *you* upset. 

    What you might also try -- since there have been two spots "labelled" by the dog as targets -- put something over those spots.  Even if it's as silly as an ottoman right in the middle of the hall or a big basket of a plant -- ANYTHING to remove that place as a possible target.

    Given this newest problem, I suspect she's a really soft dog who is worried beyond belief.  She's just making ALL the wrong choices in her worry.

    Another really superb suggestion was made above -- when a dog begins to make "bad choices" like this -- it becomes a cycle of bad choices, harsh, disapproving responses by the human, which leads to more bad choices by the dog. 

    Just a few minutes of basic obedience work with her a day. If you can get her into a class that would be optimum, but even just taking her outside, on leash, or even practicing right in the living room -- get a few treats and have her to **on command** things you know she already does very well.  Sit ... come ... lie down .... whatever.                      Deliberately ask her to do those things *on command* and then reward lavishly -- a few treats (even if it's just supper kibble given by hand), and lavish praise .... but give her the opportunity to do things RIGHT and to please you.

    Let her know she **can** please you ... and that her place IN the home isn't in jeopardy.  Expand that then to a more hands-on approach to housetraining.  If you normally just let her out in a fenced in yard -- DON'T right now.  Take the extra time to take her out on leash -- or at least follow her -- and reward her with lavish praise for elminating in the *right* spot.

    You may also have lost sight of her personal schedule -- and most dogs DO elminate on schedule.  Either they'll go after supper or similar.  Examine your house schedule and make sure she has MORE than ample time (more than typical, more than usual) to go at appropriate times.  And she may need **exercise** to accomplish this.  Yes, many dogs go after a meal, but often after exercise too -- so if you ramp up just some minor things -- have someone throw a ball, or initiate outside play so she gets just a BIT more exercise than she has been (and she's probably getting less because she may have been playing with the foster?? and now that dog is gone?) to make sure she's stimulated to go when it's appropriate for her to do so.

    You've been around here for a long time, and I don't want you to think we're un-caring, or simply saying things by rote -- but sometimes trying to think your way thru "what's CHANGED?" can be more of a brain teaser than we think.  When an established, well-behaved dog begins to make really unusual "Mistakes" that threaten to become all too regular -- sometimes you really have to turn your own responses on their head. 

    I'd guess from what you've said that this dog may never have displeased you quite this much, and I'll bet it's truly got her very very emotionally rattled to be displeasing you so much now.

    Good luck --

    • Gold Top Dog

     If you do not catch her in the act, really, delivering a consequence is useless. If you catch her in the act, you can interrupt her, whisk her out to the correct place, and have her finish outside (and praise her for that). Consequences are best delivered as immediately as possible. If you have to actually catch her and bring her back to show her what she did, it is too late to bother. This might work with a child, but in order for a delayed consequence to actually have any effect on behavior, the person needs to have a bit more language than a dog does. If your 1 year old walked today for the first time, and you were not there to see it,  you can be very excited and praise him, but he doesn't understand enough to know why. He doesn't understand enough to know that you are going crazy about something he did this morning. If you child is a bit older, he has a bit more language, and you can explain to him when he has done something wonderful, even if it was hours ago, he can understand  this. The same goes for punishment, If your 1 year old picks up something he shouldn't,  you need to tell him "no," right then and there. If your 5 year old does something bad at school, he can understand when you come home and talk to him about why he shouldn't do that anymore. The dog is more like the 1 year old in these terms. He doesn't understand language enough to be able to talk  about something he did even a few minutes ago. You've got maybe 3 seconds to do something about the behavior. If not, when you are saying no, you're saying no to whatever your dog is doing at the moment you happened to realize she had an accident.