I need some major help!!!

    • Bronze

    I need some major help!!!

    Hi all!!  This is some good stuff I am finding on this forum, and I hope you all can help me with a dilema.  I have two of the most amazing animals in the world, they are the reason I wake up in the morning.  My babies are 2 boxers, my male will be 2 next week and he is a gorgeous brindle with amazing loving eyes, his name is guiness...(yes like the beer, he actually looks like one!) and my female is an all white 11month old.  She has the most expressive attitude I have ever experienced in a dog.  I have grown up with dogs and training them.  My brother is an animal behaviorlist and makes a living training dogs for the police force and the military.  He has taken me under his wing and shown me many many things.  I have bred and trained rotties for over 9 years now and never encountered what I am facing now. 
     
    My dilema is with my little girl, her name is Lola.....she is awesome!!  She has not and seems to refuse to break the habit of pottying in her crate.  I have always used crate training methods and they have always worked like a charm.  This little girl has got my brother and I stumped!!!  She is not afraid of the crate, at all, she actually sleeps in there and goes in very easily when told.  She doesnt go in the house unless she really cant hold it....Over night she sleeps with mommie in my room and she holds out the entire night.  To give you all an idea she isnt even trying to avoid stepping in her pee or poop when she goes, she will lay in it with no worries!!  She knows when she goes in her crate because for a split second she acts upset but then she gives me the "You know you love me mommy" look!!  and she is happy go lucky from then on!!  If you can please help me, I am open to anything right now!!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Give her a chance to go outside more often?

    Quote:  She doesnt go in the house unless she really cant hold it.
    • Bronze
    Sorry to disagree already, but I dont believe that is the situation.....That quote was to let you know that the only place she goes is in her crate, not the house.....Plus, I can take her out put her in the crate and go to the corner store for 15min and she will pee in her crate....That is what I dont understand...its not a time issue for her
    • Gold Top Dog
    where did you get her from? pet-store puppies are notorious for having had their "cleanliness" instinct broken-- they are raised from day one in a their waste and so naturally think nothing of pottying in their beds. Once it's broke, you can't really fix it.
    If a dog potties in a crate, you're best bet is to either never confine her in the crate for more than an hour or two, or try confining her in a pen or room with no absorbent surfaces to encourage pottying. You really don't want to encourage/ promote this unclean habit of potty in bed in any way.
    • Bronze
    I got her from a very reputable breeder that I knew.  She and all her siblings were born in a barn stall and it was always clean, well in the area where they slept....I can confine her somewhere in the basement, but wouldnt she still relieve herself there?? I really just want her to stop thinking its ok to go when she is not outside!  Im also afraid of giving her to much freedom she is a little terror!! 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Has she had a vet check to rule out an underlying medical condition (liek a UTI)?

    When you first trained her to the crate what size was it?  A too-big crate can often be the root cause of this problem - the pup pees one end and sleeps the other rather than learning to hold it and thus overcomes the compunction against eliminating on or near their bed.  How often/how long was she left in there?  It doesn't take many times of being "forced" to soil the bed/crate to overcome the dog's natural inhibition against it.

    Puppies learn to eliminate in connection with a substrate.  When they get used to "going" on a certain surface or in a certain place, they will strive to get to that place or hange on until they get there to eliminate.  Also, simply being in that spot is enough to stimulate them to need to go (even if they have been recently).  So if you are vigilant and take the dog out to the garden very frequently, particularly when they need to "go", the garden becomes that spot for them.  If you've slipped up and allowed accidents to happen in the crate, then the crate becomes that spot.  That might be what has happened here?

    Assuming this is the problem, changing the bedding to a completely different substance may help - have you tried that?  Or taking the bedding away completely - she may be a lot less happy about lying in it if there is no bedding to absorb it.  What are you using to wash the bedding - is it enzymatic (biological)?  If not, no matter how thoroughly you wash it she will still be able to smell traces of her waste on it which would encourage her to keep using it as a toilet.

    Is she fed in the crate?  I had this problem once and solved it by feeding in the crate, leaving water (non spill bowl) in there and leaving those bowls down all the time.  It worked - presumably he had no compunctions about soiling his bed but he still didn't feel comfortable toileting near his food and water bowls.  Perhaps you could give this a try.

    If it is the CRATE that is stimulating her to "go" (not the bedding) could you gate a small area (like a cupboard) to use in the same way as the crate and start over, ensuring she is never left in there too long and always "goes" before and after confinement?

    I suggest upping the ante reward-wise for good pottying.  What does she get at the moment for toileting in the right place?  Make it as high value as possible and increase its value further by saving this treat for outdoor pottying only.
     
    ETA:  I don't understand this bit?
     
      She knows when she goes in her crate because for a split second she acts upset but then she gives me the "You know you love me mommy" look!!  and she is happy go lucky from then on!! 

     
    It sounds as if she is scolded for toileting in the crate - have I misread that?  Just in case: No dog should be scolded for incorrect toileting, ever - not even if you catch them in the act and even less so after the fact.  It also sounds like you are perceiving her appeasement behaviours as "she knows she has done wrong" which is a common error..... she is only appeasing you because she picks up on the fact that you are cross, upset or frustrated, not because she "knows what she has done".  Put her away somewhere quietly while you clean up to prevent/minimise this... also I have heard that it is somehow rewarding for dogs when they see owners handling their waste although I don;t know how accurate this is (??)
    • Bronze
    well, I have never tried feeding her in the crate, they both do have scheduled feeding times, how would I work leaving food in her crate?  Wouldnt she then eat and have to go?  I might be misunderstanding!!  I do think its a mix of both, she will always go outside, and in her crate no where else....I have tried every type of bedding, she will go no matter what is in there, towels, sheets, shirts, and whatever else....I even tried putting cardboard (since it stays wet) and still she goes....I have opted to have no bedding there now and this is why she will need a bath when I get home.  I have cleaned it with organic pet stuff and bleach and still, she goes!!  her crate is a full size which is comfortable for her to lay down now but when she was a puppy we used a partition for it, so it wasnt so big for her.....she does not get any treats when she does good potty outside, I choose not to "treat train"....she gets a ball and a whole lot of praise which she loves!!  and yes she has been seen by a vet for UTIs and is clean as a whistle.....This is why I am not sure where to go from here.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Sometimes this can happen because the crate is where the dog feels "safe" to relieve themselves. If the dog ever connects punishments with the act of relieving themselves, are uncomfortable going around humans (because we get upset when they go where they shouldn't), or out in the open where they can't relax, they will do their business in the only place they can relax and feel safe.

    A really long walk in the morning of about an hour might help to get it all out. Keep the pace brisk with occasional stops for freetime where you just relax and enjoy the scenery and not focus on the dog might be useful.

    Just a thought, going by what you've told us. [;)]
    • Bronze
    thank you angelique for your response...I do agree with your thinking of only going somewhere they feel relaxed and safe...So Im wondering if just starting over with her in a new area of the house and maybe in a pen, she wont feel so relaxed and get the hint.  I know a long walk would help, its just hard when you have a huge back yard......but i am going to try it and see where it gets me!! 
    • Bronze
    We are working through this exact problem with our 7 month old female lab.  We sectioned off the front entryway with a gate and removed the crate entirely.  So far she has only had 1 accident and that was when we were gone a few hours.  (I know she should be able to hold it longer,but it is a big improvement).  Our lab would have accidents several times a day in the crate and it was making us crazy.  So far it has been 1 week and only 1 accident and we are going to work on improving.  She still is not reliably house trained, but we are not allowing her any freedom at this point she is either in her area or she is tethered to one of us.  I spoke to another member of the forum and she said that her GSD was trained in 3 weeks, but it took her brother 10 months to train his lab.  I guess each individual is different.  Good Luck
    • Gold Top Dog
    *waves* That was me.  It's my brother's Lab, but I'm the one that actually got to housebreak him (yippy skippy).  Some dogs are just "Slow" while others are quick.  Some have issues like yours who just seem like they won't housebreak.
     
    Out of curiosity, do you work at home or stay at home at all?  The very best thing you could do for a dog like this IMO, is the tether method.  Have her leash attached to you at all times so you can take her out frequently.  If she doesn't have the chance to potty in her crate, she may well get over it.
     
    When I was house breaking, I also took Strauss to MANY different spots in the yard, so he'd understand that outside was outside.  I'm lucky enough to have a potty kennel, so my dog will go on cement.  Because of kennel club, there are a couple potty place options...grass...cement kennel...on the rocks.
     
    As a result, my dog will potty absolutely anywhere...and he'll do it on lead (real bonus...dogs who won't potty on lead are a real pain in the backside).
    • Gold Top Dog
    .....she does not get any treats when she does good potty outside, I choose not to "treat train"....she gets a ball and a whole lot of praise which she loves!!

     
    Why do you choose not to treat train?  Is this because you don't feel comfortable "bribing" her?  Or is it because she is just not very food motivated?  Or some other reason?  I'm just thinking that if she IS food motivated, you may just be denying yourself success in this area by not offering food as a reward... for a great many dogs some kind of food is the No 1 primary reinforcer and boxers are notoriously "foody".
     
    My experience is that you have more success with house training if: 1) The reward for good toileting is the No 1 reinforcer, the dog's absolutely favouritest thing in the whole world (and if that's food then so be it, regardless of whether you ordinarily "treat-train" or not) and 2. The reward is exclusive - something the dog never gets at any other time.  Pottying outside is the ONLY way to get it.
     
    So if she gets to play with the ball at other times, then I think you need to stop that and keep it only for toileting.... or choose a different (even more favourite) toy to produce when she "goes" outside.
     
    AND, I think that if she loves, say, roast chicken even more than she loves the ball - then I think you should relax your "no treat training" rule in this one area.  In fact, I think that the fact that she does not normally get food rewards in training might help all the more.... it will make the nature of the reward even more exclusive and specific, making it stand out in her mind more and making her work all the harder for it.
    • Gold Top Dog
    "Treat training" is not a bad thing, so long as you understand how to fade the treats properly.  In fact, it's the quickest way I know to get most dogs trained, since food is the number one motivator for so many of them.  I've done it with all my dogs, pups or adults, and they all pee and poop on command. [;)]  No standing out in the snow for me LOL.